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I'm a violist, and have a vibrato issue.
When I play Vibrato, I find that my hands have to be slightly wet for it to work. Either through sweat if the climate is humid, or something along those lines. If my hands are bone-dry, every time I try to play with Vibrato, my fingers will just slide up and down the string. I use arm vibrato, as that's the only method that results in a wide enough motion to produce a necessary pitch change. Wrist Vibrato doesn't really work for me until the upper positions. The string teachers at the college I attend doesn't recommend using finger vibrato, for a reason I don't remember.
Has anyone experienced this before? I know in a practical sense, my hands won't always be damp enough to have a good vibrato, but I do not know how to correct that issue of fingers sliding up and down the strings. I do not want to resort to carrying a bottle of water to wet my fingers every time I play. What advice do you all have for me, so I can correct this?
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Also, it helps to practice vibrato with a slow, exaggerated motion. Perhaps use a metronome, and start with one back-and-forth per beat, then gradually speed it up.
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Hi, @Elwin -
Andrew has very good advice for you!
I'm getting old, so I have a terrible time keeping my skin hydrated and if I've been pressing too hard, my skin get tough - even worse.
If your skin is dry, I think it makes a huge difference in the quality of finger contact with the strings!
That said, you only want your skin to be supple... I only had trouble with my vibrato slipping when I first started to learn it - not since.
You can try creams meant to soak quickly into your skin - what works for me may not work for you.
I'd stay away from lotions that leave a greasy film/deposit because you don't want that getting on your strings - and watch for potential corrosion on your strings & try another brand if it's an issue (everyone's got a different chemical make up).
- Emily
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AndrewH said
Also, it helps to practice vibrato with a slow, exaggerated motion. Perhaps use a metronome, and start with one back-and-forth per beat, then gradually speed it up.
For Viola especially, I've been told a wider range of motion is required. I guess the "damp" fingers kind of became a crutch in my case, because they would prevent my fingers from sliding. I think that the paranoia that my finger will slide is causing the stiffness, but all excuses aside, it's time for me to add 20 hours to my 40 hours a day practice time. (get it?)
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I've used similar exercises to the ones in the videos to get my top joints flexible enough. That joint is all-important because it allows your fingertip to roll instead of sliding.
After reaching a certain point in developing finger flexibility, I've played with badly dehydrated hands on a few occasions without having much difficulty with vibrato.
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AndrewH said
I've used similar exercises to the ones in the videos to get my top joints flexible enough. That joint is all-important because it allows your fingertip to roll instead of sliding.After reaching a certain point in developing finger flexibility, I've played with badly dehydrated hands on a few occasions without having much difficulty with vibrato.
Thank you for sharing this. At least I now know what I need to practice, so I won't spend my 40 hours a day in vain.
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So, I've tried the exercises when my hands are dehyrated, and I do think relaxation of the joint makes a huge difference. It is kind of weird, because my thumb does not really "stick" to the neck much, and moves around freely, but if my finger is relaxed, it can oscilate for vibrato but not slide up to the string. It kind of feels a little weird, but I think that's because I'm not used to it yet.
Now, my issue is the 4th finger. What I have to do in order to get it to oscilate is nearly bunch my fingers together. Normally in 1st position, my 4th finger is stretched out pretty far, and can't really oscilate in that position, unless I bunch my fingers together. Does anyone have any advice on 4th finger vibrato?
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That woman in the first video is doing things my left hand cannot do. The square-circle thing ? my 4th finger totally refuses to cooperate : no way to get the square shape. I guess that rules out 4th finger vibrato for me, or I'll have to find a way around, sliding or so. The times I tried "finger strenghtening exercises", I only ended up with hand/wrist pain and a totally stupid 'I'm inadequate' feeling.
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wtw said
That woman in the first video is doing things my left hand cannot do. The square-circle thing ? my 4th finger totally refuses to cooperate : no way to get the square shape. I guess that rules out 4th finger vibrato for me, or I'll have to find a way around, sliding or so. The times I tried "finger strenghtening exercises", I only ended up with hand/wrist pain and a totally stupid 'I'm inadequate' feeling.
What's your skill level? Have you tried doing the square circle thing really slowly? My guess is that your pinky hasn't had to do that kind of motion, so it's still tight. Doing it really slowly might help.
As for your hand and wrist pain, my best guess is that your fingers are not yet strong enough, so your hand and wrist are tensing up to compensate, and that's what hurts. I'd recommend that you try those exercises slowly, and if you notice your hand and wrist tensing up, then relax and try again.
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I don't know about skill, but I've been playing for something like 5 years now. I'd like to be able to do it slowly, or even quickly, but I meant I'm not able to do it at all. It works with all other fingers, but not this one.
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What part is hard?
If it's making those shapes with your fingers: I don't think it's strictly necessary to form a square with your thumb and finger. The important thing is that the top joint moves.
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This is a truly excellent vibrato video, becuse it shows common problems. I started to practice vibrato and filming it to make sure my wrist action was correct. When I found it wasnt (3.33 into the vid) I decided to try arm vibrato instead, which for me is much better and I am now starting to get to grips with it. I found learning wrist vibrat first was causing me to just move my wrist backwrds and forwards which gave the illusion of vibrato, as she shows in this video, which is well worth waching all the way through.
Cant beat a sunny day
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These are ALL very helpful videos!
I have been guilty of the bad wrist movement Stringy points out, in my attempts at vibrato. I knew it wasn't right, but it was the best way I could start to try to get a feel for where vibrato is used and that my hand MUST be relaxed (shake it out - lol).
I've only very recently been able to start to loosen my 1st finger joints, gain a little coordination and get a bit closer to what is more correct for vibrato - it's just going to take me a while. I am making progress.
In the meantime, I'm going to continue to try to get the best intonation and vibrato I can from my left hand - while using the least amount of finger pressure possible. I try to visualize my fingerboard disappears while I still play, because I pretty much have a terrible urge to smash that C string right thru the neck!
"Pressure", "stressed and overworked muscles" are terms I really don't want to associate with using my little finger - or any of my fingers.
I realized "coordination" of the correct muscles, is much better to visualize.
Maybe choose "Endurance" over "Strength Training" for fingers. I want to be able to remain relaxed while I play, so I don't want the word "Strength" stuck in my head.
I can't remember where, but someone recommended using the 3rd finger next to the 4th - kind of like "bicycle training wheels" until it starts to catch on - maybe not a bad idea! (lol)
Btw, my little finger is slowly, but surely, approaching a point of usefulness!
I still have a long way to go.
- Emily
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AndrewH said
What part is hard?If it's making those shapes with your fingers: I don't think it's strictly necessary to form a square with your thumb and finger. The important thing is that the top joint moves.
It doesn't, at least not when it's pressing down on something (thumb or string). At least not unless the middle joint caves in before. It's easier to show than to explain, so here's what happens (sorry about the mirror image) :
(… anyone tell me I'm not the only one ?)
On the viola I often use the 3rd finger to help hold down the string, as @ELCBK suggests.
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Wtw, It’s very sad to see you say, “guess that rules out 4th finger vibrato for me.” Don’t ever rule out anything based on one YouTube video!
Don’t give up! Using the right form and technique is the secret to surmounting most of the perceived obstacles in playing.
Forget about what you’re doing with your thumb and pinky in those pictures you posted. Your hand would never actually be in such a crunched up position when playing, and that position has more to do with the tensions on your pollici muscles than anything else— a difficult position for any but the youngest hands.
I’d also ignore much of video 1, especially if it’s not working for you, and focus on the info in the video from Beth at Violin Lab, “Violin Vibrato SLOW MOTION Do and Don’ts” posted above.
Stop hyperextending your pinky. Try to weight the left side of the pinky when contacting the fingerboard. Watch Fiddlerman’s excellent short-but-sweet and accurate video “Vibrato for Dummies.” His instructions on weighting the fingers will really help, especially with the pinky.
Be patient with the new techniques. Work on this just a few minutes a day while your finger slowly develops more strength. If it’s uncomfortable, skip the new exercise for a day or two to let your finger rest.
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Wtw,
Perhaps this may help.
Mark
Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.
Albert Sammons
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Wow, what a great video, Mark, with some fresh ideas.
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Here is my progress since making this thread.
I am getting the relaxed joint, and is helping tremendously. Right now, I have to work on not letting my joint act "clunky" while using vibrato. Other than that, my vibrato has improved tremendously. The only thing that's still hard is that my thumb when my hands are dry slides up and down the neck, and that makes the vibrato feel awkward.
What helps with finger relaxing is the "chicken technique". I learned this from a string teacher from Brazil who is long dead (he has a few lesson videos still around). Basically, imagine that your fingers are "chickens" pecking their food. That general idea is how the fingers should press the strings. Doing that allows the weight of the left arm to sort of make the fingers "hang" on the string. That way, your fingers are still putting sufficient pressure on the strings, but you're not squeezing the neck. I've found that gives sufficient relaxation on the finger joints to have vibrato. Getting used to this and making it habitual is a different story, though.
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@Elwin -
I want to thank you for this thread!
Even though I've seen most of these videos in the past, watching them again has helped me, too!
So glad to hear you are getting the hang of it!
Btw, very interesting concept "Chicken pecking" - great visual.
...going to take me a while to convince my 1st finger joints they can remain loose and independent, but I'll stick with it.
- Emily
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