FORUM

Please have a look at our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
What's the best place to play?
Finding the best place to play
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
toefu
New member
Members
September 28, 2016 - 9:56 pm
Member Since: September 28, 2016
Forum Posts: 1
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Is playing in a loud echoey room better than playing in a closet with a bunch of clothes in it? I have a house with all wooden floors, and there is a BUNCH of echo when I play my violin. My brother recommended playing in the closet to help absorb some of the sound. When I play in the closet, I sound crappy on recordings, and I get super super super frustrated.  But in the echoey room, I sound a lot better.  Which one is the better place to play?

Avatar
BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
September 29, 2016 - 4:36 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1867
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'd go for the room any time.   Largely what you are hearing is "reverb" rather than "echo" - but - that's a moot point.   Reverb is commonly added to studio recorded vocals, for instance - a mixed-in "delay" of 10-to-30 mSec, possibly repetitively added in at lower and lower amplitudes.   Precisely "how" this echo/reverb is perceived is quite a complex process in the brain - both by the player and the listeners.

Reverb gives an added "richness" and "interest" to the sound.   In fact, if playing as a solo with no other instruments or backing, added reverb (natural from the room, or electronically) can bring what could otherwise be a "relatively uninteresting" sound, to life.  It is this lack of reverb you experience when playing in the clothing cupboard.

For solid-body electric instruments such as the electric violin or guitar which lack the natural resonances from the sound-box it is virtually recognized as standard procedure to electronically add various effects, reverb being one of the most important.  Without it, I describe the EV sound as "sterile", lacking interest.

"Echo" as such, to my mind anyway - is much the same as reverb, it's just that it would involve a much longer delay and would arrive back at the originators ears as a quite distinct, and separate sound - like shouting "Helloooo" in a quarry or whatever and some noticeable time later hearing it coming back at you....   whereas with a much much shorter delay in "reverb" the reflected sound is being actively mixed with and added to, the original....

I suppose there would be a sort of limit on just how much reverb you would be willing to live with before the sound just became too "boomy" for your liking, but that would more likely occur in a large (and empty of audience) hall.

Both sound production and a listener's perception of it can be quite a complex thing to describe - it's like "you have to be there" LOL

Just my thoughts....  but I'd stick with the room "echo" - besides - you'd have a very limited audience playing in the cupboard !!!!

My brother recommended playing in the closet to help absorb some of the sound.

Are you sure he doesn't have a hidden agenda here ?   roflI'm just kidding with you ! 

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
damfino
oHIo, USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2016 - 10:59 am
Member Since: July 23, 2015
Forum Posts: 1089
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'd go for the big room.

I love a big empty-ish room. When I dog sit, the apartment I stay at is an open layout, decorated minimally with wood floors. The dining room area is almost like a stage at the end of the living room. I love playing my violin there.

In my house I play in my bedroom since it's the largest room in the house, and sloped ceilings, no room in the house has great sound, though.
 
Favorite place to play? Empty church. I've gotten to do it a couple times now, and I love it. It makes me feel like I play so much better than I actually do, lol.
Avatar
Charles
Regular advisor
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2016 - 8:03 pm
Member Since: June 7, 2016
Forum Posts: 152
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Generally, you're going to find the echoey room more pleasant. If it's too echoey, take  a few of those clothes and hang them in various spots around the room. They'll dampen the echoes some, and make it more of a practice room and less of an echo chamber.  (How many to use is up to you. I'd start off with one at a time until it gets toned down to where you like it best.)

Avatar
Demoiselle
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2016 - 8:41 am
Member Since: June 26, 2016
Forum Posts: 261
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have no reverb at all since I practice in a deaden cell I built in my kitchen. Having reverb would be nicer, but I hear any inaccuracy--it's really merciless. Which seems to help gaining accuracy. But it's not all that unpleasant to me. Playing trumpet in such a cell is way more unpleasant. I really hate it. The violin is way more suited to acoustic like this. 

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 24, 2016 - 10:58 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12071

The bathroom usually works great. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Demoiselle
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2016 - 5:11 pm
Member Since: June 26, 2016
Forum Posts: 261
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Fiddlerman said
The bathroom usually works great. 🙂  

It certainly does. My stepmother had Caterina Valente's autobiography, I read it although it wasn't really my music. And she wrote they took the studio microphone to the bathroom where she sang and recorded her successful hits of the 1950s before they had plate reverb.

But I'm afraid, in our multi-family house everybody will hear it over the plumbing, and on Sundays I may play up to 5 or 6 hours at times. My sound booth was highly necessary.

Another upside: I like the acoustics of the club where I will have my concert and I will enjoy it a lot after having practiced in my dry cabin.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 25, 2016 - 8:35 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12071

Enjoy the club then. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
intrepidgirl
Members

Regulars
November 25, 2016 - 12:11 pm
Member Since: March 8, 2015
Forum Posts: 119
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@toefu : I definitely prefer a big-ish emptier room with no carpets and a high ceiling if possible.  The imperfections may stand out to you, but the sound in general will be fuller I think.  If nobody is home, I stand in the middle of our living room, big windows, no carpet, no curtains, and play.  Otherwise I do in fact get relegated to an office or, yes, the bathroom.  I think it would be great, as @damfino said, to try playing in a church or a real performance hall that has some acoustics. 

Avatar
damfino
oHIo, USA
Members

Regulars
November 25, 2016 - 12:25 pm
Member Since: July 23, 2015
Forum Posts: 1089
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@intrepidgirl While you've got the Traveler, I bet it would be easy to be allowed to try out playing in a church 🙂 I had someone open up a historic one at a museum for me and let me have it all to myself, lol, all just because of having the Traveler 🙂 It really was so fun to do.

Avatar
Demoiselle
Members

Regulars
November 26, 2016 - 3:53 am
Member Since: June 26, 2016
Forum Posts: 261
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Fiddlerman said
The bathroom usually works great. 🙂  

Last night I thought about playing a short piece in my bathroom this morning and then the same in my dry cabin to compare it in one video and post that here. But now I'm afraid this might spoil my practice morning. First you're excited in wet acoustics, but you get used to it pretty soon and then it's like normality. But if you then go back to your dry chamber, you will absolutely hate to practice. So I better keep away from that wet drug, especially one week before my concert. About a week ago I had closed a last gap of my practice booth and since it's even dryer than before. The effect is now, that the elder woman above me will hear me like playing in another room that would be not directly below her apartment, which is a real improvement for her. The neighbors to my right hear nothing at all and those to my left probably a wee bit. Nobody can object to that.

Concerning my concert, it's worth to improve my playing in the dry booth, where I hear any inaccuracy. The sound in the club will brisk me up then. I told them, no electricity all all! I will bring on a lot of candles and hide all microphone stands and electronic equipment behind the curtain. So, nice acoustics with lots of candles will really boost my mood and joy of playing. I will flirt a bit with Mr. Handel, who will hang in a golden frame in front of the red curtain and make some jokes about my relationship to him as well. But until that: practicing hard in the dry cell of course. 🙂

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 30, 2016 - 9:23 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12071
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Exactly, it is best not to get used to the wet acoustics for lack of being satisfied in the dry. It's very good practice to play in varying acoustics on a regular basis.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
kenny
Member
Members
December 20, 2016 - 4:46 am
Member Since: December 20, 2016
Forum Posts: 4
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I love playing in a big and empty room. 

Avatar
Rosco
Connecticut
Member
Members
December 21, 2016 - 4:26 pm
Member Since: December 18, 2016
Forum Posts: 23
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

As much as I’m really addicted to playing in the bathroom, I think I get the most from playing outdoors. It seems like you have to continually work hard and be bow-hand focused to produce good tone and projection outdoors. This is where I learn the most about bow control… pressure, speed, etc. I guess ‘best place’ is subjective depending on what your goal is.

I’ve never tried a dry booth environment… not sure I’m ready to handle the stark truth! 🙂

Avatar
Demoiselle
Members

Regulars
December 21, 2016 - 6:35 pm
Member Since: June 26, 2016
Forum Posts: 261
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Rosco said
As much as I’m really addicted to playing in the bathroom, I think I get the most from playing outdoors. It seems like you have to continually work hard and be bow-hand focused to produce good tone and projection outdoors. This is where I learn the most about bow control… pressure, speed, etc. I guess ‘best place’ is subjective depending on what your goal is.

I’ve never tried a dry booth environment… not sure I’m ready to handle the stark truth! 🙂  

I feel the same way. Since I can afford defocusing from the fingerboard hand, bow technique and sound are improving.

Playing outdoors in Winter is probably not good for the violin, but I can imagine that it helps because the sound out there is dryer than in rooms. Possibly at the countryside but rather not here in Berlin. I want to focus on training my technique and not make street music. And I don't wanna see grumpy people who would not like my music. Also my booth is absolutely quiet, so I hear any uncleanness.

Avatar
Rosco
Connecticut
Member
Members
December 21, 2016 - 7:56 pm
Member Since: December 18, 2016
Forum Posts: 23
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Slightly off topic… @Demoiselle, I find that practicing with a bow that is a little lighter than average has also helped me develop better control. The weight of the bow does not contribute as much to contact and tone, so you must assert just a little more pressure and better define the difference between pressure from the wrist and from the first finger. When I go back to using a standard weight bow, the control is there almost without thought.

Avatar
Demoiselle
Members

Regulars
December 22, 2016 - 4:21 am
Member Since: June 26, 2016
Forum Posts: 261
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Rosco said
Slightly off topic… @Demoiselle, I find that practicing with a bow that is a little lighter than average has also helped me develop better control. The weight of the bow does not contribute as much to contact and tone, so you must assert just a little more pressure and better define the difference between pressure from the wrist and from the first finger. When I go back to using a standard weight bow, the control is there almost without thought.  

DSC00677.JPGImage Enlarger

My bow--very short, extremely lightweight and self-made. I had to develop my own rules how to hold it. In things pressure I must be very active, speed is of course easy. I would never use a modern bow, but if I will have to invest into a professional baroque bow, it's gonna be expensive because that's what they are.

Avatar
Rosco
Connecticut
Member
Members
December 22, 2016 - 12:30 pm
Member Since: December 18, 2016
Forum Posts: 23
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Demoiselle said

My bow--very short, extremely lightweight and self-made. I had to develop my own rules how to hold it. In things pressure I must be very active, speed is of course easy. I would never use a modern bow, but if I will have to invest into a professional baroque bow, it's gonna be expensive because that's what they are.  

Self-made bow... very interesting. Did you reference a specific pattern or historical piece while developing your bow?

Avatar
Fiddlestix
Michigan, USA
King
Members

Regulars
December 22, 2016 - 2:46 pm
Member Since: January 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 2647
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

In the bathroom.

 

Ken.laugh

Avatar
BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
December 22, 2016 - 3:44 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1867
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Yup - I go back to my original response to the post - if I'm in "play" mode - yes - for me, I stand by what I said - I like the room echo - our lounge is good - hardwood floors, not much soft furnishings, it's good to both my ear and the recording mic.

Bathroom - sure tried it - in our one it's a tad too "boomy" for me but has it does have its own very distinctive sound...  I can't quantify it - maybe if the bathroom were larger the "returning echoes" would be further apart ?   Dunno - I mean we're only talking milliseconds here.... but of course it's also the "decay time" as well - I suspect that's maybe what irritates me.  Really not sure yet.... some things I play there sound good under the ear - some ( usually faster pieces ) just don't....

BUT - as @Demoiselle says - when it comes to "practice" as distinct from "playing live" - sure - the "dry" sound works well for me and I find this really "telling" and shows up a lot of my inaccuracies - and I achieve that largely by going to the EV.   My description of the EV sound is "sterile" - with no body resonances to speak of, and virtually no inter-string resonances ( OK, very little - there are some I can hear depending on what I'm doing) it's getting close in some ways to the "dry" sound from an acoustic ( in fact, it is IMO an even MORE telling test with no body resonances. than you would have from a really-dry acoustic... )

I think we need to experience both types of acoustic environment, just to get a real feel for sound production form the instrument....

It is also quite telling to record, with a reasonable studio mic, your sound, and play back on reasonable speakers (not your tinny little inbuilt laptop speakers) or quality headphones...   it sounds quite different from what it does "under your ear whilst playing"....  especially in a wet acoustic - your ear is SO much closer to the sound output of the fiddle you're getting "more of that" to your ear compared to the level of room-reverb coming at you.... a well placed mic and a listen-back can tell a lot about how it might sound to a listener...

It's all about your ear - and your listeners' ears - often quite different things...

I can see some experiments coming up when I can find sometime...  Also quite interested in playing out-doors ( I have done in the past ) - but to take some proper measurements - but gonna have to wait till spring-time for that..

As it happens - here's my 4/4 fiddle restrung as a viola, playing outside, it sounds QUITE different - BOTH under the ear and to the mic - from when played and recorded indoors....  this was about a year ago... on holiday in the hills above Braemar - until I was interrupted by a hill-walker !  

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online: Jim Dunleavy
44 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Sofia Leo, TKDennis, FiddleDetroit, CookiesViolin, Bobby, Elaisa

Top Posters:

coolpinkone: 3876

Mad_Wed: 2849

Barry: 2666

Fiddlestix: 2647

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 4410

Moderators: 0

Admins: 3

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 56

Topics: 6640

Posts: 82560

Newest Members:

ata1966, Anthonymic, Lalkamr, st.petersburg.russia.expat.forum.spbexpat.ru, JamesRuism, tinker 47

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 12071, KindaScratchy: 1676, BillyG: 1867