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Goodbye Fine Tuners?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
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RosinedUp
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December 3, 2012 - 2:07 am
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Of course no part of an $80 violin outfit is going to have the highest quality.  I can't say that I know much about the basic issues regarding tailpieces.  But from what I can see and hear, they take care of the basics: holding the strings and allowing fine adjustment.  I have bought fine-tuning tailpieces for $4 each including tailgut and shipping.

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ratvn
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December 3, 2012 - 2:21 am
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RosinedUp said
Of course no part of an $80 violin outfit is going to have the highest quality.  I can't say that I know much about the basic issues regarding tailpieces.  But from what I can see and hear, they take care of the basics: holding the strings and allowing fine adjustment.  I have bought fine-tuning tailpieces for $4 each including tailgut and shipping.

Oh boys, what a deal, RosinedUp. I've looked around for a couple of those and none is less than $20.00.

You really know how to bargain.

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DanielB
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December 3, 2012 - 3:01 am
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I don't know about the fine tuning tailpieces, really.  I have one on my acoustic, carbon/plastic composite with the built in fine tuners.  Not having done A/B style comparison in person, I don't know which sounds better.

I do note though, that the "pro" players don't seem to use them.  If they were actually good for the sound, I reckon they would.  

Logically, any mechanism with moving parts like a fine tuner is going to damp the vibration of the string a bit.  Most of the "nice" violins I've seen have wood tailpieces, and usually only one fine tuner (for the E string).  There are probably reasons, but I don't really understand enough about the instrument yet for them to be obvious to me.  Still too early in the learning curve.

But there are some very pretty wooden tailpieces available, and I really don't like the look of molded plastic on my acoustic violin. LOL

So far as taking parts off, well, those changes are all reversible when it comes to things like the chin rest and shoulder rest.  I found the acoustic violin comfortable without the shoulder rest, so I never used one for it after a brief try to see if maybe I liked it better with a shoulder rest.  With my first acoustic, I found it much more comfortable to play without the chin rest as well.  But everyone is built different, and what one person needs to play comfortably will be different than what another person needs or likes.

I don't really think of it as a purist viewpoint or a tone thing so much as "if you don't need it, don't use it".  If you do need it or find it helpful, then by all means you should use it.

I have heard concerns that playing without the chin rest in particular would restrict a player to "first position" mostly and one couldn't play complex or advanced pieces.  Didn't seem to slow old Paganini down much, though.  While it might take developing or re-learning different techniques than are taught for modern style playing with the chin rest, obviously it is possible to play complex pieces and use the full range of the fingerboard somehow. 

Now, it might not be possible without a chin rest and shoulder rest to satisfy a teacher who is used to the posture and hold that use them.  I don't know on that, I haven't dealt with a teacher for violin or looked into any of the method books yet.  But the way we think of as "proper" to play the violin today is not how it was played in the past (including some of the periods where a good bit of famous violin music was composed and performed) and how it is played in another century or so may be different than how it is done today.  Music is like that, ever evolving and changing, not only in sounds and musical styles but also in playing techniques.  

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ratvn
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December 3, 2012 - 5:03 am
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DanielB said 
I do note though, that the "pro" players don't seem to use them. 

Logically, any mechanism with moving parts like a fine tuner is going to damp the vibration of the string a bit.  Most of the "nice" violins I've seen have wood tailpieces, and usually only one fine tuner (for the E string). 

Those are very good observation, Daniel. This is what I've gathered from reading about violin design and sound characteristics.

Violin tailpiece length, weight and material are all parts of the sound characteristics as it's also vibrating with strings and nothing really as warm and resonant as real wooden piece so traditionally it's made from ebony (other type of wood are also in use). And it just like comparing CF and good wooden bow (my personal opinion as I do have and play both), while CF does offer economically price, long lasting quality along with good response of a good wooden bow, it sounds somewhat colder and does not have as much of the natural rich, warm and resonant sound of a good wooden one (especially good Brazil pernambuco. I use the word "good" because there are many good CF bows that beat low quality Brazil red wood or pernambuco counterparts which are expensive). So, to solve problem of weight, length and sound characteristic with built-in fine tuner, some of special formulated metals were employed (it's sometimes advertised as space-age aluminium alloy and so on), and it does come close, I believe, but maybe not as good as real wooden tailpiece.

The other point is that someone performed sound analysis/comparison between string size/pitch between high and lower strings vs afterlength and came up with conclusion that larger size/lower pitch strings favor longer afterlength (as seen in different size of instruments in the string family), and so there is an asymmetric violin tailpiece in which the lower pitch/larger size strings would have the longer afterlength physically. That point implied that if there's a fine tuner for violin E string due to string material (steel core, mostly?) or for convenience, it would not affect violin sound characteristic as much and that is why most of the pro/expensive violins have just E-string add on fine tuner attached to its wooden tailpiece to preserve its rich/warm/natural sound characteristics, perhaps.

Speculation, maybe?

 

 

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December 3, 2012 - 6:55 am
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Ferret said

So it would seem that the geared pegs would eliminate the afterlength problem and still allow fine tuning, if you want that feature. As a learner I find the tuners very useful.

The geared peg's have no affect on the afterlength. Afterlength is adjusted by lengthening or shortening the tailpiece which is done by adjusting the tailgut. The 1/6 ratio figure's to be 54.6 mm of afterlength, but like I said before, is not set in stone.

Proper afterlength is adjusted by tone, the D string is tuned to A. The placement of the tailpiece can have an impact on the sound of the violin and in some case's  eliminating wolf tone's.

The luthier who worked on my 130 yr old violin said, geared (guitar type) tuner's are not used because of the added weight of the neck.

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KindaScratchy
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December 3, 2012 - 10:21 am
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Ferret said

KindaScratchy said

Rob, I think Ferret's referring to your comment about eventually losing the shoulder and chin rests. IOW, the things that aren't permanently attached.

Of course, there are other things that aren't attached, like the bridge, tailpiece, sound post and pegs. Wouldn't want to lose those!

surprised

Hi

Thanks for understanding. Thought it may have 'me'. Many people don't realise that when you live 'Down Under' you think from right to left rather than the northern left to right. roflol

I don't speak Australian, but it's very close to English, so I was able to grasp the meaning.

roflolrofl

When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,

I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.

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December 4, 2012 - 5:22 pm
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LOL!

When my K550 came, i was worrying about tuning wothout fine tuners, because it had only one, as usual on E... But then just realized that i don't use it rofl

Took off the E string fine-tuner lately. No fine tuners... And usual ebony pegs =) No problems with tuning E either, even if it's steel dunno

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Barry
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I removed all of my fine tuners from my viola last night. Actually pretty easy to tune it with all perlons

There is no shame in playing twinkle, youre playing Mozart

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Fiddlerman
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December 4, 2012 - 10:27 pm
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Naska!!! REALLY? The E string? What prompted you to do that?

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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December 7, 2012 - 2:16 pm
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Fiddlerman said
Naska!!! REALLY? The E string? What prompted you to do that?

Yeps rofl. Maybe because it was quite hard to turn it dunno I just didn't use it... and took it off =) Don't know how will it be.. But it was 2 weeks ago and i'm still alive LOL! Maybe i'll leave it that way... maybe i'll put it back... But for now it's OK =)

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Fiddlerman
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December 7, 2012 - 10:58 pm
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Are we talking about the K550? Perhaps it was tightened down too much?
Those tuners are usually great.
Was it this one?
http://fiddlershop.com/hill-vi.....prong.html

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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December 8, 2012 - 4:14 pm
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Yep! That one.

I don't think it has some problem. I have weak fingers. I didn't use much fine tuner on E string on my old violin too. Though i used them on others strings. Does E have the highest tention among other strings? It could explain my problem... which is not really a problem...rofl

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Fiddlerman
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December 9, 2012 - 11:19 pm
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Yes, the E has a higher tension than the other 3 strings. Glad it's not a problem :-)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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cdennyb
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I purchased a package of 4 fine tuners off ebay with some other supplies awhile back and they were very very cheaply made. The threads were quite poor and stripped out after only a few days. I sent them back and complained. I did not get any replacements.

You may have gotten a poorly made FT and as such need to change it out for a new one of better quality.

If you buy a FT set (4) that cost less than $15 you'll probably end up dissatisfied. I saw one made of titanium go for around $45 which is a little too much for me!

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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DanielB
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I paid about $7.50 for the set I put on my electric, and they have worked out pretty well.  But I made it a point to pick ones where the screws/threads were brass rather than plated, and I checked them over to make sure they turned and operated smoothly, and put a little white lithium grease on the threads when i checked them over before installing. 

So I'd say it's possible to get tuners that are ok for a bit less.  But you want to check them over before putting them on, because as a general rule, the cheaper a piece of hardware is, the more inconsistent it's manufacture was.   And sometimes, the cheaper hardware will be the stuff that failed a QC check where the stuff that passed is sold at a higher price.

 

As an anecdote that doesn't relate to violins, but does relate to a wood product that is partially done by hand and partially done by machine..

My step-father worked for many years at the company where almost all Louisville Slugger baseball bats were made through the 1970s.  They supplied white ash baseball bats for everyone from major league pros to kids.  He explained once that there was actually no difference at all between how they were made.  The pro players would come in and pick their bats out of thousands that were in the plant on any given day.  Some of the pros tapped them, some swung them a bit, some checked how they bounced if dropped on end and that sort of thing and would pick out the ones they wanted.  They all seemed to have different qualities they considered important and were looking for.

But the important thing, in my step-father's opinion, was that they didn't sort any out special for the pros or do anything special unless the pro wanted something done after they'd picked their bats.  Some wanted the finish sanded off and other such things.  They usually signed the bats they picked so they didn't get mixed up with other players' bats.  But most days there were no pros picking out bats, and any kid in any sporting goods store or department had just as good a chance of finding one that was really good as any pro did.  So the difference was all in the selection.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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