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Down by the Sally Gardens Ornamentation Test
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
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JohnG
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April 6, 2022 - 9:35 pm
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I am looking for constructive criticism of the ornamentation that was suggested I should try by @ELCBK and as outlined by Chris Haigh in his lesson on this. 

Please let me know which ones are okay, and which are not. There are 10 of them (if I played them all).

Thank you!!

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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April 6, 2022 - 11:30 pm
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@JohnG -

Really doing great! 

LOVE that you're taking a stab at these! 

Definitely sounds more interesting! 🤗  

 

If you are trying a 'double cut', I think you are starting to get it, but shouldn't hear all the notes so separated, but there's NO doubt that what you are doing also sounds good!

I think of single, double cuts & rolls more as 'interruptions' of a longer note - used in place of changes you can make in a bow stroke. 

They are more percussive than pitch. 

These 2 tutorials are more specific: Chris has a video about single & double cuts HERE - you don't need to learn Morrison's & in The 'Roll' Chris talks about is 5 notes - but think of playing them in the space of only 2. 

I learned from other tutorials, but I recommend these because Chris is one of the few people that lets you also see them in standard notation, which might help you to understand these ornaments better. 

 

 

The bottom line... explore to find what do YOU like!  

Ornaments, fingered & bowed, are meant to add flavor/character, but YOU decide when & how to use them. 😊

- Emily

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ELCBK
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April 7, 2022 - 11:37 am
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@JohnG -

Sorry, I probably shouldn't have mentioned anything 'percussive' when it comes to playing a slow Air - and maybe all this info isn't appropriate for a critique posting.

Slower tune ornaments ARE a bit more open than for Reels, but I still think of them more as a 'flicker' vs. say a 1/32 note, since grace notes only help emphasize other notes.  They are played in a space between 2 notes, so grace note(s) are a very tiny bit of borrowed time from 1 or both of them.  If you play 3, distinct & equally timed notes, it's a 'triplet'.

Am I making any sense? 

AND... to make things even more confusing, in Scottish music they call that Irish 'cut' a 'flick', and the Irish 'bowed triplet' is a Scottish 'cut'!

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JohnG
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April 7, 2022 - 7:41 pm
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@ELCBK - Thanks, what I was attempting were the double cuts that Chris Haigh described and demonstrated in that lesson on Down by the Sally Gardens that you posted the link to me. He even notated then on the sheet music he showed in the video.

The old curmudgeon!

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JohnG
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April 7, 2022 - 8:28 pm
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btw - Here is the sheet music as supplied by Chris Haigh on his video on learning Down by the Sally Garden, and as can be seen, includes the double cuts he suggested. This has been transposed to Dmaj from Gmaj.

Down-by-the-Sally-Gardens-Gmaj-1.pngImage Enlarger

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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April 7, 2022 - 10:09 pm
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@JohnG -

Your link is broken, but I saw Haigh's notation in the original tutorial I linked. 

If you get a chance to watch & hear what he says about 'cuts' in the other video, you might find it more helpful. 

Chris has a video about single & double cuts HERE

I should've realized that standard notation can be deceiving when it comes to grace notes - not supposed to be able to clearly hear their pitch played. 

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Mouse
April 8, 2022 - 5:11 pm
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Nice job, @JohnG Enjoyed it very much. I can really hear that you have been doing some serious practicing 👍.

The Bumblebee Flies!

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JohnG
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April 8, 2022 - 6:03 pm
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@mouse - Thank you! What's the old saying (paraphrased)? "While the Mouse is away"?

The old curmudgeon!

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JohnG
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April 8, 2022 - 6:06 pm
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ELCBK said
@JohnG -

Your link is broken, but I saw Haigh's notation in the original tutorial I linked. 

... 

Fixed. Thanks!

The old curmudgeon!

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stringy
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April 8, 2022 - 6:42 pm
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They sound good John, you cant expect to get them dead on straight away like anything they take time. If you want my opinion on how its done ? for what its worth, the trick is that the notes when playing say a jig have got to almost sound as one note, not quite but almost, there doesnt have to be a very discernible gap between them, dont know if I am making clear what I mean, by this. There is a good explanation of cuts rolls and other ornaments in the front of O neils but  the tunes in there are for fiddle, same principle. Dont get caught up in having to give them all different names, all they are in reality are fast notes that are slotted in to give colour to the tunes. I would start by just doing one note, try doing an e on the d string, bow it and then quickly tap your finger on the note f, try it again but this time tap g, it has to be very quick and light, its just a tap, no real pressure but the note should sound, this gives you a great feel for what its supposed to be like.

Even though they have to be done fast, you still match them to the speed of yqour music that you are playing, for instance you can use them in an air, but they would be slower, still fast compared to the tempo you are playing at though, dum dee, dum dee, dum dee, diddly, see what I mean.

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

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JohnG
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April 8, 2022 - 7:14 pm
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@stringy - Makes sense, now to see if I can do it!

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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April 8, 2022 - 7:31 pm
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@JohnG -

Stringy gave a great explanation! 

You might find this humorous: I had a great workshop today with Alasdair Fraser at Fiddle Hell - he said (paraphrasing) "Learn to have a healthy disdain for 'written' ornamentation - only play it that way if you've been taken into captivity!" 😁

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stringy
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April 8, 2022 - 7:53 pm
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We are all learning, just passing on what I have been told, which is what you should do if anyone asks. 

Doesnt matter how gòod or bad you are, if you know something pass it on, in this way the music survives.

Fact is with Irish tunes, you use these ornaments to put your own style on the music you are playing, put them were they sound good. (keep the original tune though) its done differently in every part of Ireland, and thats the truth, you wont hear the same tune played the same way in any different county, they all have their own style, the reason for this is because vast majority of Irish players learn by ear, so  the way they play a tune is the way everyone has learned from each other and the way it has evolved in that particular area over many years. The way to learn by ear is also quite simple really, just listen to a tune over and over till you can sing it in Your head, and then find those notes on the fingerboard as you sing it to yourself. You will have to do a lot of moving up and down till you manage it but thats how its done, simple but not easy, at all, at all, at all, at all, as they say .;)

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

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Doc-Ivory
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April 15, 2022 - 10:05 am
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Hey!
im pretty impressed. Great job!

-Jim

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Katie M
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I don’t know what ornamentations are but I think what you played was brilliant !! I think you are doing amazingly well !! 

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ELCBK
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April 15, 2022 - 1:59 pm
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@Katie M -

If you'd like to know what ornaments are, check out these 2 videos: 

The 'Roll'

Single & Double Cuts

There's SO much beautiful traditional music out there that uses these 'ornaments' to give them a specific character - worth learning.

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JohnG
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@ELCBK - Consider me in captivity now (at least for awhile).

@stringy - If it were easy, it wouldn't be so hard! lol

@Doc-Ivory and @Katie M - Thank you, still learning and sometimes it's decent and other times it "ain't"!

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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April 15, 2022 - 5:27 pm
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@JohnG -

Your playing is wonderful - and I think you're wild at heart.

Ornaments probably don't mean as much to everyone as they do to me. 

One of the reasons I wanted to learn to play violin was because I saw/heard The Hot Violinist , Jenny O'Connor, playing the Gael - starts right off with rolls.  And, she had a tutorial!

So, naturally, I learned these as soon as I could figure out where my fingers & bow went. (lol)

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JohnG
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April 15, 2022 - 5:47 pm
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@ELCBK - Wildman John, I like the sound of that! lol 

I can see why ornaments are important to you. I hope I can get a real handle on them, too.

The old curmudgeon!

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