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Learning Vibrato
Does this look right?
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damfino
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November 3, 2015 - 4:56 pm
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@coolpinkone My teacher had me start working on vibrato painfully slow. She said 2 vibrato motions per bow stroke, so it's just this annoying "waaaa-waaaa" noise. She said to even just practice the motion while watching tv or reading emails. She said if it helps, start with the violin in guitar position, then work up to the normal violin position.

 
So that's what I do, sit and watch tv slowly practicing the motion on my violin. I did it a couple times in guitar position so I could really watch what my wrist and fingers were doing, then moved it up to normal position. I naturally still have a long way to go, but this quiet practice is really helping my muscles get used to the motion.

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Jacques
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The vibrato I utilize is wrist movement on the very tips of my fingers. You will learn to articulate notes with your nail facing the bridge because you can get a much better vibrato that way. You will want to roll the finger pad to the tip of a nail along sting and fingerboard. Do not be afraid to really handle the neck of the violin, you don't want to clinch it; you just want to be grasping the neck as fingerboard. 

 

Practice flexing your fingers with an open palm (your finger joints should remain relaxed [not like a cat fight]), tighten your finger muscles simultaneously and hold it : that amount of strength is the same amount that should go into your vibrato...

 

e.g. Your hardened flexed thumb supports the neck while your other four fingers articulate the grasp while your Forearm and wrist act like a piston rod and piston head.

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coolpinkone
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November 3, 2015 - 7:07 pm
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@Jacques 

Thank you for this!  Another great visual and aid to help.

It makes sense. 

Ps ... people keep watching me at my desk doing this exercise and they surely think I am odd. :)

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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cdennyb
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One thing that plagues a beginner vibratoist (is that even a word?) is the weight of the end of the violin that has to be supported while trying to 'shake' your hand or fingers to get that elusive sound.

I think those that use a shoulder rest and can lever the weight with their chin are at an advantage to produce it (vibrato).

I find my best vibrato is achieved when I drop the end of the violin so there isn't as much weight for me to handle, and of course that's in poor form but the end of my 5 string electric with the exotic 'fender guitar style' tuners is heavier than a standard 4/4 violin of the acoustic variety, in fact my typical acoustic weighs 288 grams at the scroll and my 6 string EV weighs in at a whopping 436 grams. That's weighing it with the violin balanced on my neck like I would play it and the scale set on top of a CD case so it's at shoulder level.

Just an observation for you all to ponder. coffee

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Fiddlerman
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November 6, 2015 - 8:11 am
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Good point Dennis.

Beginning vibrato is very different from refined vibrato.

I wouldn't even be able to relate to what you are saying if I didn't try a left handed violin some weeks before leaving on our trip.
It's impossible for me to vibrate on a left hand violin even though I know exactly what to do. LOL

On a regular (right hand) violin, I can vibrate without even holding the instrument. I know that sounds like a physical impossibility but it just comes from doing this so much in my life that the movement is natural and easy.

Left hand violin, vibrating with the right hand, SUPER TORTURE!!!

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damfino
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My hardest thing is relaxing my grip, which I'm getting better at. Since my first lesson, my teacher has stressed to me not to lift up the violin at all while I play, to let my chin do that, so for me I don't even notice the violin that way, but that grip, ug, lol. She has stressed the relaxed hand to me from my very first lesson as well, but that isn't coming as easy to me as not lifting the violin, lol. While I practice vibrato, I can relax my grip, and then bounce around doing scales without gripping (I do that on purpose to try to train my hand to relax more), but as soon as I go back into a song, my grip tightens. I don't think it's a death grip, but I do think it's tighter than it should be. 

I don't know if my teacher stresses relaxed holds more than others or not (she does stress it quite a bit), but she said she had an instructor that didn't correct her which led to needing carpal tunnel surgery at around 20, so after that she worked hard at teaching herself to play more relaxed, and makes sure she passes that on to her students.

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Jim Dunleavy
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November 6, 2015 - 9:43 am
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In the almost 3 months since I started this thread, I've been on a roller-coaster ride with my vibrato. First I though I would get it, then I thought I would never get it, then I got it again!

Wierdly, the thing that got me out of the rut was changing from practising at 4 cycles of vibrato per beat at 60 bpm on the metronome to 3 cycles per beat at 80 bpm. It's weird because those are exactly the same speed vibratos, just split up into different groupings! Yet 3 per 80 bpm is so much easier for me that now I truly believe I'll be able to vibrate properly in time.

I also found mixing in some practise in a higher position (so that my hand is in contact with the violin body) helps as it stops the tendency for my wrist to waggle about when I go faster. I should post a video progress update really - just need to get round to setting the camera up when I practise.

Almost forgot to say that as I practise more, I find I can hold the neck up with my left hand even while vibrating - the trick is in your thumb position. That really helps alleviate the neck strain and means I can practise vibrato for longer.

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cdennyb
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Very true... I tend to 'set' the violin neck on top of my thumb print when I play. I can never have a death grip when holding the neck like this.

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"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Jim Dunleavy
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November 6, 2015 - 1:22 pm
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cdennyb said

Very true... I tend to 'set' the violin neck on top of my thumb print when I play..........

Yes! I do the same. You can sort of grip the neck (gently) between your thumb and 'vibrato' finger.

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micra
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November 17, 2015 - 8:27 pm
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read something good today from an article by Simon Fischer on the internet, it has made a difference for me, practicing so long with the metronome, and unable to speed up the vibrato:

"Vibrato mechanism

Of all the many issues concerning vibrato, the most common difficulties arise from the following:

There should be only one active direction of movement in vibrato: forward to the in-tune note.

  1. Vibrato can be likened to clapping, where there is only one active movement to bring the hands together, the hands then bouncing apart again as a "passive‟ movement. The hands go "in, in, in, in‟ not "in, out, in, out‟. In the same way, vibrato goes "forward, forward, forward, forward‟, not "forward, back, forward, back‟.

    Trying to make an active movement forward and back requires twice as many actions and thus requires twice as much energy. It creates a vibrato that is too wide and too slow, but efforts to speed it up may end in fatigue and tension.

  2. Finger pressure should be heavier during the forward movement, lighter during the backward movement.

    During the forward movement of the vibrato, the fingertip naturally leans slightly more heavily into the string. During the passive, backward movement, the finger naturally releases the string slightly. A vibrato with equal finger pressure backwards and forwards is impossible to play fast, and is a major cause of left hand tension in general.

There are specific exercises designed to build the rhythms of the vibrato, or to release the finger on the backward vibrato movement, which can be very helpful."

 

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Uzi
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micra said
read something good today from an article by Simon Fischer on the internet, it has made a difference for me, practicing so long with the metronome, and unable to speed up the vibrato:

"Vibrato mechanism
Of all the many issues concerning vibrato, the most common difficulties arise from the following:

There should be only one active direction of movement in vibrato: forward to the in-tune note.

  1. Vibrato can be likened to clapping, where there is only one active movement to bring the hands together, the hands then bouncing apart again as a "passive‟ movement. The hands go "in, in, in, in‟ not "in, out, in, out‟. In the same way, vibrato goes "forward, forward, forward, forward‟, not "forward, back, forward, back‟.
    Trying to make an active movement forward and back requires twice as many actions and thus requires twice as much energy. It creates a vibrato that is too wide and too slow, but efforts to speed it up may end in fatigue and tension.
  1. Finger pressure should be heavier during the forward movement, lighter during the backward movement.
    During the forward movement of the vibrato, the fingertip naturally leans slightly more heavily into the string. During the passive, backward movement, the finger naturally releases the string slightly. A vibrato with equal finger pressure backwards and forwards is impossible to play fast, and is a major cause of left hand tension in general.

There are specific exercises designed to build the rhythms of the vibrato, or to release the finger on the backward vibrato movement, which can be very helpful."

 

That's exactly right.  

VIOLIN VIBRATO: KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED

1. Make a loose fist with your left hand.  

2. With a straight wrist hold your knuckles (those nearest the tips of your fingers) about 1 or 2 inches above a hard surface like a table or desk top.

3. Keeping your forearm still, rap your knuckles repeatedly on the surface bending the wrist to do so. 

Notice that all of the force is downward toward the table and that the wrist automatically rebounds back to straight after each tap.   That's essentially the same thing as a vibrato movement.  It is not a conscious push the hand forward, pull the hand back motion at all. It's a strike and rebound motion.

Move your hand a little higher above the surface and do the same thing, then a little lower.  Then do it more slowly, then more quickly. Whether you tap your knuckles from a higher point, which is equivalent to wide vibrato or lower point, which equivalent to narrow vibrato, it's the same thing.  The principle is also the same whether you do it fast or slow.

Next, keeping your hand exactly like it was, turn your hand around until the palm is facing you at the distance it would be on a violin neck.  Now repeat the motion that you just did on the table -- that's the motion for wrist vibrato.  

Next, with your palm still facing you repeat the knocking motion, but this time keep the wrist more or less straight and instead knock from the elbow.  That's arm vibrato. 

I'm pretty firmly convinced that most people that try to teach vibrato don't actually have any idea how they do what they do -- and after you can do it, you might not either.  It's like riding a bicycle, once you can do it, it's hard to understand why others can't and trying to explain it to someone else doesn't often work. 

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

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Jim Dunleavy
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Well, I threatened to post an update, and here it is, 5 months down the line.

I'm practicing mainly in 4th position (or it might be 5th, depending on how I feel), though I'm also moving back to 3rd as well to get some practice with my hand off the violin body. This video only shows me higher up though. Some days I'm more fluid and relaxed than others, and I was a bit tense when I took the video.

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damfino
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January 15, 2016 - 1:47 pm
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Doing good!! My 4th finger still can't even do it a little bit, I have to build its strength a bit more.

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Jim Dunleavy
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damfino said

Doing good!! My 4th finger still can't even do it a little bit, I have to build its strength a bit more.

Thanks @damfino . :)

Yes, some fingers are much harder than others, though with me it's my first finger that has the most trouble. My 3rd finger is easiest.

What amazes me most is the incredible slowness of progress! But at least there is some progress.

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Fiddlerman
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January 15, 2016 - 2:40 pm
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Doing good Jim. All steps, even baby steps are steps forward. :)

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but the one who needs the least."

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January 15, 2016 - 7:55 pm
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I like it, Jim. I only wish I could get my vibrato back again that I had as a kid.

Keep it up.

 

Ken.

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coolpinkone
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January 16, 2016 - 2:39 pm
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jim-dunleavy good job.. keep it up.

I am surprised at the slowness of the progress.  I was told when I was learning that it would all of a sudden click.. Not the case with me. 

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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January 17, 2016 - 1:02 am
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re: Dot on finger:

I have been taught that good sounding vibrato rolls from 'pitch' to sharp, and then the vibrato will sound on pitch. if you roll the finger from pitch to flat, the vibrato will sound flat. so in other words the roll should not be flat to sharp with pitch in the middle but pitch to sharp and back to pitch. ime, this this sounds better.

So.... I'm thinking that in order to see the dot on your finger, you would have to roll the finger towards the flat?

Make sense? Opinions?

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Jim Dunleavy
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bluesviolin said
..........I have been taught that good sounding vibrato rolls from 'pitch' to sharp, and then the vibrato will sound on pitch..........

Everything I've read and watched says the opposite is true. Vibrato is always below the actual pitch.

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January 17, 2016 - 7:20 am
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this is what she says about vibrato.

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