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Barry said
Oliver said
If the bow subject is simplified it is not nearly as interesting. (How else can a wooden stick be parleyed into a five figure item ?) Besides, this is the American way.actually its the French that make the best and most expensive bows...so its the French way
and I thought it was the germans?
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Well, the origional intent of the post was to determine if changing the balance point of a cheap bow would give it the bowing characteristics of a more expensive one. Thus, negating the need to spend more money. I was told by my Violin guy that lead is added to professionals bows to balance them out. it only takes a scant gram or so. And no, since I am still learning, I dont know everything, but its fun to learn and share. In fact I learned that the balance point of the bow is important. You should never learn to live with something that can be changed for the better. The store employee who sold me that replacement bow simply sold me a bow. I didnt know at the time what questions to ask or what to look for. Hopefully this thread will help someone else when they are ready to upgrade their bow.
Oh, and I teach elementary school kids how to hold and begin to play so I dont consider myself this great Violin teacher. Everything I have learned and relearned is because of discussions, blogs and sharing. The greatest joy I have experienced is seeing a childs face when he/ she gets it and begins to make music for the first time ever. priceless.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Yes, Denny, that's exactly where I got my information with the chart for bow weight and balance and I had read Chapter 12 re: stripping the bow winding's. It said in there that the original addition of the silver winding's was to dampen the shrill sound of the steel E string and that the different length's of winding's was to keep the balance point at approx. 19cm.

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Its embarassing because I dont feel like Ive achieved a certain level of success yet to feel like a qualified teacher. I volunteer at my sons school with his strings teacher. I also have three private lessons students. One student Ive had nine months now was able to pass over beginner strings into the intermediate class, that felt pretty good. The other two are brand new since last month. I have noticed that some of the kids pay attention really well while others kind of zone out into la la land at times. In the beginning everything they do right is a huge accomplishment so there are alot of big smiles, clapping, high fives and high praise. We start at the beginning and incrementally move forward from there. Sometimes you have to say "I bet you cant do this" other times its "show me how you would this". I am able to meet them on their level though, same height, even voice, lots of encouragement. Once they see they can do it, it gives them confidence to continue. Teaching my son Twinkle Twinkle was a challenge simply because he had difficulty holding the instrument while learning the finger posistions. But he is getting it.I feel more like a mentor than anything else.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Sorry Robert, I misunderstood, I thought you were a full fledged violin teacher, I guess I got that impression from reading your comment's in the shout box.
I think it's great that you are volunteering your time to help the kid's. And you are right about challenging them to a task. ie: I bet you can't........
Great stuff. I applaud you.

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Yeah Denny, I tend to agree that if there's no price given then either "if you have to ask, then you can't afford it" or they just don't actually want to sell it anyway. And looking at the page of that innovative new bow design, uhh.. I can't make out enough to figure hide nor hair of how it could do what is claimed, so I probably wouldn't want one anyway. LOL
Logically, it is just physics that moving the frog is going to make some difference. But thinking of it as a lever and the movement being on the heavy end? Moving the frog a few mm may only move the balance point a mm or maybe even a fraction of 1 mm. Such a slight difference that it wouldn't be noticeable under any normal playing circumstances. Maybe a really good player could tell, but I wouldn't be able to. So for all practical intents and purposes, I'm good with the idea that it doesn't move it enough to make any important differences.
It just seemed odd to me that most balance point references seem to refer to distance from the frog when it would seem to me to be more sensible to measure from the tip, which doesn't move rather than the only moveable part on a bow. That way there is no need to wonder about how to actually make the measurement in the first place. But what do I know?
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Maybe you guy's didn't read my post, week before last, I checked the balance point's on all 4 of my bow's with the frog in and out and there was no measureable difference in BP.
Daniel,,,, the BP is going to be in the same location regardless of where you measure from, the tip or the frog. It won't move.

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At the risk of boring the dickens out of some members..
Fiddlestix. Do you honestly think that any time someone does not agree with you 100%, that they simply didn't read what you typed?? Relax. LOL
I agree with you 99.9% on the actual point of it not being enough of a change in the balancing point of the bow to likely matter to anyone.
The tenth of a percent that I disagree is that it does change slightly. Here we have a bow (most of one anyway) hanging from a thread with a yardstick to measure the difference when the frog is at both extremes.
That is not much of a change. About 2 inches of tilt. The thread only needed to be moved not even an entire 1 mm to bring it back to the same equilibrium between the frog being at minimum and maximum adjustment.
So there is a difference. But it is very small. Considering that the difference between a loose bow and a taut bow can be less than one turn of the adjustment screw, it probably isn't even moving the frog more than a mm or 2. So the actual balancing spot of the stick would be changing by only a tiny amount, some small fraction of 1 mm.
That is a difference that is so slight that I rather doubt that even most professionals would notice it. I'd have to see it to believe it. It would be considerably less than the difference adding or subtracting less than even 1/10th of a gram from the tip would make.
The only instance I can think of where it might be even slightly noticeable would be if a bow with hair that was very stretched out was re-haired. The frog might be a few mm different than it was before the re-hair (though the overall balance point would not move enough to notice when playing even then). Far more likely that they would notice the slight change in distance from the frog to the leather wrap.
So, considering that approximately 19 cm is what the one authority considered optimal, I doubt anyone would decide to buy or not buy a bow if it is a mm or 2 away from 19 cm. It would be close enough.
So I agree 99.9% with you. Which in my book is close enough to call 100% for any practical playing purposes.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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