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ABitRusty said
obviously though...sheet music is a necessity when getting multiole people to play along together. kinda the guidlines everyone follows.. plus the actual notes
True, but also, in my case, I leave the option to use a click track that has any part you like to hear while playing. I suppose I should include a click track with just the drums, but I'm worried I'll get incomplete submissions as I have in the past.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@ABitRusty -
Of course I agree we need written music notation.
I just think notating swing & syncopation is hard to do - kinda surprised no one has come up with a better way to do it by now.
@Fiddlerman -
When you made the Quartet recording of "It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas", did all of you use a click-track? ...or maybe only a 'count-in'?
I still don't know much about DAW & Notation software, but for swing & syncopated music, I really like the idea of 'beat mapping' for a click-track. Even though it's 'tempo', I think it would be helpful for 'rhythm' - since the timing of downbeats (and chosen transients) can be mapped .
Instead of playing to a straight click-track, or a click-track that has a blanket % of swing added - wouldn't 'beat mapping' help portray performance rhythm better?
What I'm trying to find out... is there any way to use 'beat mapping' to help create notation that gives a better picture of swung, or syncopated rhythms?
I like the idea of the 'Free Tempo Recording' feature (in this video, at 10:43), new in Smart Tempo - Logic Pro 10.7.5!
I'm not a Mac user, but I'm looking for similar features in Windows DAWs.
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@Fiddlerman said
ABitRusty said
obviously though...sheet music is a necessity when getting multiole people to play along together. kinda the guidlines everyone follows.. plus the actual notes
True, but also, in my case, I leave the option to use a click track that has any part you like to hear while playing. I suppose I should include a click track with just the drums, but I'm worried I'll get incomplete submissions as I have in the past.
Its helpful having the score playing with the click/drum track.. for me anyway. I like having that reference.
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So, I found tips for "Notating Free Rhythm in Sibelius 7", which I think is probably similar to the way it's done in other notation software... but it's not exactly what I'm looking for.
It's basically just changing of the tempo in a section, in a kinda generalized way.
Anyway, wanted to go back over some basics of counting & notation.
I LOVE THIS - Sesame Street!
The Cult of the Written Score (Academic Dubstep and how sheet music affects how we listen to music) - Adam Neely
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...more looking at notation & review for me on playing Swing.
Interesting for me to see how this was notated!
I've really tried to be mindful of articulation like this the past 6-8 months - it really becomes increasingly more important as my strings get lower. Sometimes it's been a challenge because of humidity effecting my rosin, strings, or slightly wrong bow hair tension... and I probably need a re-hair for my favorite bow.
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I finally felt like I got some very productive practicing in - 2 days in a row! I always get some practice time in, just can't say it always feels 'productive'.
...moved on to 'brain stuff'.
Notation Must Die: The Battle For How We Read Music
Lately, it's like I'm at the right place, at the right time. Tantacrul's video today - what can I say... it spoke to me. 😏 I doubt if anyone else will watch this from beginning to end (like I did), but some of the chapters might 'speak' to others.
Everywhere I look, Swing and Syncopated rhythms are just thrown into 4/4 time signature - MAKES ME SO AGITATED! 🤬
...I still want something to jump out & tell me it's different!!!
I really like the great rhythm possibilities in this time signature - nice to have a different, easily understood, perspective.
Spent more time on 'grooves' & notating them - had been looking at polyrhythms again, but ended up at 'Djent'... never heard of this "subgenre of progressive metal"! Syncopated, POLYMETRIC GROOVE!!!
Also, reviewed some 'grooves' I'm already acquainted with - keeping in mind I'd like to learn to notate these differently.
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Okay, I'm officially declaring WAR! 😡
I'm going to CONQUER MY NEMESIS - Notation Software!!!
...but first, I'm REALLY, REALLY late to the Halloween Party! I'm VERY close to being ready to record - THEN, I'll 
the software... starting with my phone app!
This is just getting to be ridiculous... my priorities have got to change. 😔 I have a lot of things I want to start trying to notate & I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT ALL BY HAND!
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Spent a little time today trying to figure out why it's so hard to account for the 'lilt' in an Irish Jig.
...just another little uneven type of tune that isn't traditionally played the way it's usually notated. 😞
Kevin Burke said, in his tutorial on Irish rhythm, that the 1st note (of the 1st group of 3 beamed 8th notes) in each bar of a Jig was held a little longer than the 2nd, and the 3rd "was about right" - same for the 2nd group of beamed 8th notes.
He also mentioned he slurs 'into' each of the 2 beats that make up the groove of a Jig - it's very distinct.
So, playing straight 8th notes is terrible for a Jig - but so is holding the downbeat too long.
I have noticed the way a few Scottish Jigs have been notated - possibly the best, yet. Still 3 notes beamed together, but instead of 3 eighth notes - there is a dotted 8th, a sixteenth, and a plain 8th note beamed together. AND, sometimes the dotted 8th is NOT the 1st note.
Looking at a comparison, the dotted beaming at least draws attention to the fact there's something 'uneven' happening.
So why don't more folks use this kind of beaming for Jigs?
Here's one example: "The Scottish Horse Jig" (The Session)
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Maybe a triplet might be more accurate, but it would be very awkward to notate that way within compound time. The problem with a dotted note is that it suggests the first note would be three times the length of the second note, and invites holding the downbeat much too long. It might be easiest to just understand that unevenness is part of normal performance practice.
Another example of a traditional, non-notated lilt is the Viennese waltz, where the second beat is traditionally played slightly early, perhaps something like this:
But notating that takes up a lot of space, and it's easier for musicians who are familiar with the traditional performance practice to just read the quarter notes and play the lilt by feel.
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@AndrewH -
Thank you!
I'm sure that Kevin Burke never suggested using the dotted eighth in the triplet beaming for your same reason.
Really appreciate you pointed out the Viennese waltz rhythm (which I LOVE). Is rhythm, like your example, shown as a little sidenote at the beginning of a score?
My issue with notation vs how the music is actually played - mostly about folk styles/genres. I see too many people look at trad folk sheet music & play it EXACTLY as it is written. Musicians who understand a genre don't need much (if any) notation, but the people who REALLY NEED the notation don't get enough from it to learn a style, or genre.
So, should notation be prioritized for those who really need it, or for those who don't? Custom arrangements ARE written, all the time for Classical music - I'd like to see an extra effort to help ensure folks learn more about trad folk music.
Maybe we don't have enough notation symbols to help Fiddlers with trad folk genres - we have plenty of Music Symbols for Classical music, but a lot of genre music doesn't fit neatly into the boxes of Classical, or a piano!
If nothing else, I still like the idea of breaking up the triplet beaming - showing 1 separate eighth and then 2 beamed (even though it still goes against standard practice). At a glance, it implies (to me) to give the separate eighth a little more value than the next 2 beamed ones.
🤔... I do wonder if something as 'simple' (lol) as using a modified typeface would suffice (?) A bolder printed 1st eighth, maybe just a bolder/thicker note stem. Possibly along with a slightly longer visual distance between the 1st two eighths of a beamed triplet. Both would stand out enough to warrant some attention, would help show the groove in a Jig better. I think the option to adjust the distance between notes that are beamed is currently possible with notation software, but I can't imagine the headache of requesting any addition to the Unicode Standard for extra Music Symbols.
Maybe we could borrow from 'shaped' note tradition - reuse the shapes to suit time values that slip between the cracks of standard notation, instead of pitch (?)
Didn't any Avant Garde Composers create, or modify, any music symbols?
Sorry, just grumbling... none of it matters unless enough musicians/composers care to see a change, anyway - and I'm in no position.
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@elcbk said ..."My issue with notation vs how the music is actually played - mostly about folk styles/genres. I see too many people look at trad folk sheet music & play it EXACTLY as it is written. Musicians who understand a genre don't need much (if any) notation, but the people who REALLY NEED the notation don't get enough from it to learn a style, or genre. "
who are these people you speak of? and why so concerned? I think if someone is REALLY interested in learning a particular style of music, theyll LISTEN to how its played and try to learn from that. If its just a passing interest and theres a tune notated out that they like..and they play it however close to how its traditionally played then great. they had some fun and played a tune. whats the problem. if they want to play it how they want to play it no matter if it sounds like everyone else...then great too. maybe understand that if they visit a jam or session they may be surprised... but thats part of it too. all learning.
chances are some notated tune isnt going be played exactly that way in any given session anyway. so one could study the best notated tune with all the markings and ornaments ..and still not sound like where they visit.
As time goes by I think most will hear where they lack in any particular style. Notation for aural traditions is just a way to capture the basic tune. MAYBE when people are learning fiddle having slur markings and notating out suggested places for ornaments is handy.. but listening is the biggest help. Besides.. how would you notate out something like...how to lean into a 3 note slur? you can have a slur mark but if youve never been around or listened to someone play it in a more traditional way.. youd probably just slur it. and notating out ornaments just gets busy. it actually makes it more difficult than it has to be i think.
im not against notating traditonal tunes. i use sheet music still.. but all the fuss about it seems like maybe a bit much. just listen to some good players in the style and hear what your trying to play.. as time goes by it helps.
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@ABitRusty -
Thanks.
Appreciate your opinion!
Yep, if things had always stayed the same, I would have never learned to play the violin. YouTube had to be created & tutorials made available, but I don't like to take anything for granted.
...I'm always thinking of my Grandkids.
Hey, this is Emily's 'Exploration'.
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Hey, this isEmily's 'Exploration
i know and understand.. and i think due to DAW and music software things wil change and different ways of looking at a score will come. I mean, right now you can open a midi piano roll in a daw and view a note entirely different. if you change the settings you can get the graduations down to a 1/64th.. so you could see the exact lengths compared to other notes. theres even a section concerned with dynamics.you can colorize note names so something like a C would be green ...a D would be blue... E Red... etc.. LOTS of things that can be done there.
Im not sure it makes it easier to share music.
if you open a midi track in presonus up, you can do things like this with notion. you can set the graduations to 1/16 or 1/32 and manually put in a tune. adjust note length and dynamics. its pretty powerful and note too difficult once you get uaed to it. heres a short visual using pro tools and a plugin for another notation software.
so by using a daw and a piano roll you have the tools to get timing exactly how YOU want it and get a copy of it to some notation software. the tech is there already. even swing. just move the midi note off the beat slightly. presonus even has a "humanize" function that randomly changes velocities and timing for you controlled by some paramaters you adjust.
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@ABitRusty -
NOW YOU'RE TALKIN'! 🤗
So, are changes made with the "Graphical Midi Tools" automatically seen in the Sibelius notation, or just heard in playback?
...oh wow! Just found how to 'manually' adjust a score in Sibelius - 37/32 and 73/64 time signatures, with other expressive features!?!
Jeez, I don't know if I could ever have the patience for this. 😣
I did get pretty excited when I saw that uneven tempo could be mapped exactly to how someone plays it AND a click track made from it! I've seen enough videos talking about it, so I'm sure more folks will start to see this freedom as an advantage.
Hopefully, someone will comment on some of these videos (🤔... me?) & it will spark more talk about the need to develop an easier way to convert this digital audio data into notation!
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@elcbk said...NOW YOU'RE TALKIN
ive been talking aboit and sharing videos on this kinda stuff for 2 years now!!! 🤨
So, are changes made with the "Graphical Midi Tools" automatically seen in the Sibelius notation, or just heard in playback?
Ive not used sibelius, but notion within presonus is realtime and does this.
Jeez, I don't know if I could ever have the patience for this
well.. this is how to do what youre wanting.. 😉
Hopefully, someone will comment on some of these videos (🤔... me?) & it will spark more talk about the need to develop an easier way to convert this digital audio data into notation!
. 🤨 i mean my gosh...i can play a tune on a midi keyboard and in real time notation is displayed within notion. i think thats pretty cool... so Im not sure what youre wanting.. remember the spitfire videos? go watch some of the videos spitfire puts out about how to use their products. Also some of the Roli keyboards.. tbey are very cool.
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@ABitRusty -
YES, you have helped a lot by presenting a ton of Daw & notation software info!
I really appreciate you started me down this path & I'm closer to figuring out what I want from it all, right now - just still having issues navigating the software jungle.
...btw, I did finally go back to a Notion Mobile video tutorial to see how to change the key signature.
🤨 i mean my gosh...i can play a tune on a midi keyboard and in real time notation is displayed within notion.
So, still not clear on this - If I play a keyboard to set notes in 'Notion', I still have to select all the parameters first, including guessing the note values and phrasing I hear. Any conversion I've seen still requires me to edit, have knowledge how to analyze/interpret this music to do it... am I wrong on this?
Didn't think I wanted anything to do with composing, but Stringy's Project has reminded me to get back to exploring improvisation, which IS a form of composing! Modifying my priorities for this thread:
1.) learn to EDIT notation - interpret what I feel & play in types of swing & syncopated music better.
2.) resume exploring modulation, chord progressions, extended chord use & improvisation for swing & syncopated music
3.) play & analyze more types of swing and syncopated music
I'm excited about 'Hookpad' - for now, think it will be an easier way for me to explore all these.
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@elcbk said..."So, still not clear on this - If I play a keyboard to set notes in 'Notion', I still have to select all the parameters first, including guessing the note values and phrasing I hear. Any conversion I've seen still requires me to edit, have knowledge how to analyze/interpret this music to do it... am I wrong on this? "
you can record midi in notion. it also has a metronome. yes youd pribably need to set whether its 4/4, 3/4, 6/8..etc.. but after that put on the click track and enter the notes by recording a live performance. it will enter note values and pitch based on what you play vs the time signature and tempo. pretty neat.
you can also enter the notes one at a time by using a midi keyboard.
or you could record it in presonus and view and edit via the score window..once you have it like you want theres an "export to notion" button on a menu. notion will open with the score and from there you could print, edit, save...whatever.
granted theres some settings but nothing overly complicated. I think i would get the keyboard functioning in presonus first since it usually recognizes automagically. that way youll know the computer and keyboard talk.
but if youre using and hapoy with the hookpad then you may be all set there and not need any of the above.
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@elcbk something like this. You may be interested in the handwriting feature. I think youve decided on the other app..but just posting this here in case you see something youre interested in. I think most all notation software have these features. The only reason I use notion is because it came with presonus and seemed to work for what i wanted and what i got used to using.
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@ABitRusty -
Thank you! I'm really glad you gave me that info, it will help me stay focused when I get into PreSonus.
I'll end up in PreSonus, no matter what, but I still need to download the MPK editor for my Akai Play & decide if I want to use the MPC Beats DAW, or even why I would want to (?), if I have PreSonus.
I'm going to play around in Hookpad for a little while, because of how easily I can experiment with chords & chord progressions.
I have process everything for a little bit & get back on track with a few other things I've started... brain needs down time. 😊
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