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I have a new fiddle teacher, who has been quite helpful for me. As a mostly self-taught musician, I’m always on the lookout for ways that I can get improve my playing.
My teacher is a very accomplished player, with lots of experience and great technique. As he demonstrated techniques for me, I noticed that he was mostly looking at his fiddle. I understand that classical violinists are trained to NOT look at the instrument while they are playing so they can focus on the written music, so I was a little surprised to see him watching the strings.
This makes me wonder if it’s a good or acceptable idea for fiddlers to look at the instrument sometimes while we are playing. Fiddlers mostly play by ear and improvise as we go along so there its no obvious reason to prohibit looking at the instrument.
Looking at the instrument could be helpful in giving us visual information in addition to the aural and physical info that we get from our ears, body, hands, etc. More information is better, right? On the other hand, focusing on the visual might detract from the most important thing, the sound that we are producing (intonation, tone, etc.)
I didn’t think to ask my teacher about this while we were together. I’m interested in others’ thoughts about this. Whaddya think?
Strabo
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Personally, I think whatever floats your boat and is acceptable for where you are playing.
I just think there is too much of everyone telling others what to do, in cases where it does not matter. Who said classical players have it right? Many things have changed over the centuries, decades and years.
I probably stepped on a lot of toes again. 😂
Good topic.
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it could be his face and eyes are in that direction but he really isnt looking at the strings for visual feedback. Ive caught myself staring directly across a session circle at another musician. not really looking at THEM.. but im sure it was creepy nontheless 🫣😵💫 Then i have to decide where to point my nose so i looked at the floor. 🙂
As far as to look or not... i dont wqtch strings for feedback... i may look at strings but its not to double check anything. as far as i know. 🤔
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I can't remember who it was, but I saw a good classically-trained player recommend looking at the point where the bow contacts the string. Apparently it helps you keep the correct contact point for the best sound. This was in a youtube video.
Obviously that only applies to stuff that's memorised - if you're reading a part in an orchestra (for example) you have to look at the music.
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Found it: -
ab_channel=VirtualSheetMusic
He waffles on a bit, but the part about where he looks is at 7m 40s.
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@Strabo -
🤣 Yeah, once I've got a tune memorized my gaze HAS to go somewhere, usually where there's movement (unless I close my eyes) - so, usually in the general vicinity of the top of my instrument, so I can see some of both of what my bow is doing on the strings & my fingers.
I do look at my fingerboard when learning a tune by ear, even if I have notation handy, especially to reinforce (help me remember) unusual finger/hand movements, or bow placement/travel, for a specific tune. I'll also look at my fingerboard when I want to change (or fix) something in my playing, or get re-acquainted with an old tune.
...I haven't 'practiced' looking anywhere else while playing without notation (maybe I should). If I need to interact with someone (or a cat) while I'm playing - that's not always very successful, depends on how well I know the music.
Practice of any kind of eye-hand coordination helps me remember & respond better!
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That’s a great video, Jim. Thank you so much! Fitzpatrick is always interesting and challenging — a deep thinker for sure.
His point about having his students memorize the music as soon as they can is interesting, and it goes against my glib comment above that classical players need to focus on the paper. (There is no doubt that Dr. Fitzpatrick is far more knowledgeable than I!)
That comment is similar to the guidance that I got from Dr. Molly Gebrian who teaches viola at U of Arizona. WRT playing by ear — as in most traditional music — she said that it is necessary to be able to audiate the tune before putting bow on string. That means being able to clearly hear the music in your head before proceeding.
Fitzpatrick seems clear that we need to use all of our senses. I will try focusing on the point of contact — every little thing helps!
Strabo
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Yes Emily, it does depend on how well you know the music.
I find that if I know the music really well I can play pretty accurately, make good improvisations, produce the tone I want, etc. But if I know the music only semi-well or I didn’t take the time to get it into my conscious brain, my playing comes out all goofy! Ugly! Caca!
Like everything else, ya gotta do your homework first. And that Fiddle is a real taskmaster — it exposes every one of my lapses and flaws!
Strabo
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Most videos waffle on too much, and, on the whole, I hate them. I resort to them if I have something specific I want to do. Just watching them generally is another form of attention-deficient channel-hopping.
It is always easier to practise a piece if you have it memorised as well as you can*, but we are not all gifted with eidetic memory. I do not recommend relying on memory for performance, unless you know your memory is 100% solidly reliable**.
*Having said that, if you can play a piece well enough, you can play from the music and snatch occasional glances at the contact point and so on. If you spend all your time looking at the contact point, you'll go boss-eyed and will need a new spetacle prescription every 6 months. Now I'm showing that I haven't watched the video, lol.
**So if you want to perform and your memory isn't 100%, you'll need to have practised following the music. It is not nice having a memory lapse and then not being able to find your place in the music. I have been there and done that - I speak from experience, having played piano in annual music festivals for most of the 70s.
Andrew
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I don’t look at the strings (not intentionally, anyway) when I play. I learned to play by not looking at them—so I don’t gain anything by looking at them now. I suppose I might be looking at the fiddle if I’m playing from memory, but I’m not really looking at what I’m doing—it’s just where my gaze falls. My “focus” is somewhere in my head concentrating on the notes.
I don’t have strong feelings about it either way. But I think you might have problems if you are relying on a visual (rather than feeling & hearing it) if you try to progress to other positions and more complex music.
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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I expect professional orchestra members (except soloists) to have their eyes on sheet music in front of them while performing, BUT... I REALLY LOVE watching musicians who have their music memorized & actively engage with the audience - showing some physical signs they have deep feelings for the music (doesn't have to be anything elaborate). ...I grew up with Rock Concerts! 🤗
Gordon Shumway said:
Most videos waffle on too much, and, on the whole, I hate them. I resort to them if I have something specific I want to do. Just watching them generally is another form of attention-deficient channel-hopping.
...Now I'm showing that I haven't watched the video, lol.
Jim even gave the exact time where to see the relevant info in the video!
Don't you ever poke around at a Library, sample books from the shelf above, below, or across the aisle from a book you wanted - for something related, or possibly a brand new discovery? I don't read every book I pick up, have to check the jacket & flip through - many go back on the shelf, but I always ended up some great books. YT is like a Public Library. 😊
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Reflecting on everyone’s comments, I think that I can help myself by being mindful of my attention.
At different times it may be most useful to look at the sheet music, or observe the point of contact, or close my eyes and focus on tone, or connect with audience or bandmates, or sense the weight of the bow in my fingers, or feel the vibrations in my shoulder, or any number of other things.
Also, I can choose to use my attention to try to play one way or another, or to passively observe what’s happening.
The point is that my attention is an important resource. If I use it carefully and intentionally it can help my performance.
I know this may sound somewhat zen-like or goofy, but in the past I have found that carefully directing my attention has helped me a great deal when driving a race car or swinging a golf club. I haven’t practiced much using directed attention with my fiddle, but it’s worth a shot.
As always, thanks to all for your interesting comments!
Strabo
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Perhaps another reason not to look at the instrument too much: ergonomics. Kim Kashkashian advocates setting up the chinrest and shoulder rest so that you can comfortably hold the instrument in place with your head facing straight ahead or as close to it as possible, in order to minimize tension in your neck muscles. That doesn't mean you should rigidly face straight ahead when playing; the head should also be free to move around. (See the seminar video I posted a while back.) Looking at your instrument all the time often means keeping your head turned farther to the left, which is not great when playing for a long time. Nothing wrong with looking at your instrument occasionally; I look at the contact point sometimes when I want to be really careful about placing it at a certain point.
Regarding looking at the music: generally classical players try to memorize solo repertoire as soon as they can, but ensemble music (whether chamber or orchestral) is almost always played from sheet music. There are two reasons for this. First, orchestral musicians in particular have to prepare a lot of music very quickly, typically 60-90 minutes of music per week. Second, because the melody gets passed around in most ensembles and everyone is playing accompaniment for long stretches, parts are harder to memorize than solo music. Even then, portions of the music are being played at least partially from memory, either because the notes are too fast to read quickly or because attention needs to be on the conductor at times.
Soloists do sometimes perform from sheet music, especially when they're performing several different pieces within a short time, but often they've memorized the piece and just have the sheet music available to take a quick look at in case they forget anything. The one time I played as a soloist with an orchestra, I had sheet music in front of me, but looked at it for only about 10 seconds of a 9-minute piece.
When I'm playing in orchestras, my attention is constantly shifting between the sheet music, the conductor, my section leader's bow, the concertmaster's bow, and very occasionally my own contact point. I would say my eyes are on the sheet music about 70% of the time (with conductor's baton in my peripheral vision), on the conductor 20% of the time (especially around tempo changes), and on the section leader or concertmaster most of the rest of the time.
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Very excellent video. It’s easy to focus on technique or the music, and forget about the body.
But the body eventually reminds us. For me it’s usually tightness in the back and shoulders. Then I think: Darn it! Why was I in such a hurry to get started? Why didn’t I take my time and get my body properly warmed up and ready to play?
Good reminder, thanks Andrew!
Strabo
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