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There is much talk about absolute pitch and relative pitch. The absolute, where you can identify directly one note based on just hearing it on any instrument, while relative hearing is more about identifying the note with the help of having identified nearby notes.
I am going to discuss another phenomenon that seems to be my case more than absolute or relative, and since I have not heard of it before, I will name it simply
Muscular Pitch.
If I hear a note played *on violin* I can without making any sound or trying, IF and ONLY IF I have the violin in the hand supported normally on the left shoulder, instantly find the position of the played note (without any trials, the finger goes directly to the correct place). This is obviously some kind of muscular hearing, because its not my ear or my brain who recognizes the note, but the muscles. And I really have to hold the violin in normal position.
Can anybody explain this phenomenon and how to take advantage of it? (I am not a person with good intonation in general.)
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I am jealous! I am very weak at playing by ear. I can get close, usually one or two notes high. And then I will play it as sharp when it is supposed to be natural, play it as natural when it should be flat. I am getting better at it though.
You could learn songs this way, especially if you can slow the music down and play one note behind the music. Maybe.
Dave
What is it that sends the correct information to your muscles? Muscles have no memory.
I am not typing right now because my fingers remember the keyboard.
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We see, hear and feel as these activities are conveyed to the brain through the nerves.
If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it ..(William Shakespeare in Twelfth Night)
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Muscular memory isn't anything new. It's how many guitar players play. Jimi Hendrix actually talked about this way back when. When you''re hearing the tones of the music in your head your hands just go in the right place because of knowing your hand positions well.
I would say keep practicing all the hand positions on the violin. Don't get stuck in first position because then your muscular memory is being very limited. Yes, you can compare it to typing on a keyboard too. Once you learn to type well, your fingers just flow over the right letter without thinking about it. It's all about the correct position.
Dave, you made a great comment…If you have the tools to slow down music while keeping the same pitch, it's a great way to learn a song by ear.
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That is if you are not tone hearing impaired! I used to be tone deaf, but I am working on it!
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lenasv. said:
Muscular Pitch.
If I hear a note played *on violin* I can without making any sound or trying, IF and ONLY IF I have the violin in the hand supported normally on the left shoulder, instantly find the position of the played note (without any trials, the finger goes directly to the correct place). This is obviously some kind of muscular hearing, because its not my ear or my brain who recognizes the note, but the muscles. And I really have to hold the violin in normal position.
I have the same capability though I don't need to have the violin in my hand to feel the note in my fingers when I hear them.
First of all, obviously our fingers can't hear or memorize anything. Your violin gets the same note every time your muscles depress the string at same spot on a violin. So when your ears hear a note combined with a muscle movement and feeling in the nerve endings and finger tips, your brain memorizes that connection. (this is my best guess)
Can anybody explain this phenomenon and how to take advantage of it? (I am not a person with good intonation in general.)
Your intonation is relatively good Lena. Everyone plays out of tune. Play a slow scale, record and listen to it and tell me if you still think you have bad intonation.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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Thought I would move this topic up for discussion by current members, or past if they happen to take a look, 😁.
I thought this was interesting. The typing being brought into the conversation kind of connected. I was a really good typist years ago, with the real typewriters and early tiered computer keyboards. With these device "keyboards", or even the flatter computer keyboards, I cannot type at all, as you have all noticed with my abundance of typos. No matter how I try, I cannot get my fingers to use these keyboards like they did when I learned to type in school. A temp agency had me do the typing test twice because I did it really fast with no errors. They thought there was something wrong with the timer, I repeated it exactly, with a few seconds cut off the time. That was with a real electric typewriter. Wow, I am old.
I am having a much harder time achieving this ability to train my fingers on my violin, viola and cello fingerboards. I am thinking that age, and the lack of classroom has a lot to do with it. I think age is the major culprit, fingers are not as nimble and ears are not as good.
But, when I read this post, it reminded me of my typing and how it all changed with technology. It is so sad, something love doing, and it has such horrid results, now.
I have, actually, over the years of trying to learn these fingerboards, thought about how I learned to type, because back when I started trying to tackle these, the thought that I became so automatic with the typewriter keyboard, if I did the same thing with these keyboards, I would get the same result. Not quite the same.
The feel of the keys helped, I think. The fingerboards offer no clue. The tapes help. This is not a discussion about pros and cons of tape, some people don't need them and others do, it is as simple as that. So, please don't tell me to remove my tapes, I have tried that over and over.
I think you need to be able to recognize the correct tone, too, Going back to typing, you see the letters, it is the correct letter, or it isn't. Simple, clear, immediate feedback. I think the feedback is harder to identify with instruments of any kind.
So, how does this work, or how did it work for the OP, and for @Fiddlerman? Did it start working from the get go, or was it more repetition, repetition, repetition?
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@Mouse
Obviously it helps to start at a younger age. I was 12 when I began playing. It's different from person to person. In my case, it felt like it was natural but I'm 59 years old and it was 47 years since I began my violin journey. I can' necessarily remember accurately but I do remember accelerating quickly.
I suppose it's the same as learning a new language, or, as you said, to type. 
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@Fiddlerman
I really do think that the learning, be it "muscular" or otherwise not only varies from person to person, but at the age you are learning. I am thinking that muscular learning, at least for me, is harder to "unlearn" because these device, and the flattened computer keyboards are still of pretty much of no use to me. I cannot get my muscles to remember the feel of them. My fingers want that more ergonomic tiered typewriter keyboard.
I remember telling my cello instructor that I believe I could have been pretty good on my cello if I took it up as a child. Not pretty good, meaning professional, but I think I really could have learned it and been able to play it as it should be, without hesitation. I just feel it, but my bones and muscles and reactions are so slow to the mark. I keep plugging, though. He said that he thought so, too. But understands the barriers when you try to learn it when the body does not want to cooperate, tactful way of saying, "learn it when you are older". He really liked the " What A Wonderful World" video I sent him. That was done after lessons stopped and I used what he taught me, and what my own thinking was telling me. I get the gist of it and understand the why's, but my joints, reactions and fingers just don't want to cooperate. That is a lot of muscle learning, pretty much. Maybe it is more muscle memory, than learning?
I just found this old topic thread kind of interesting.
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Aren't most of us here learning/playing an instrument as a 'hobby' (myself included)?
...so, why expect so much in return?
I think it's AMAZING we even make a stab at it!
Learning as well as just playing the violin/viola/cello is an EXTREMELY complex endeavor!
imho... Kids: not only have the benefit of learning without having to deal with, or worry about, essential things grownups do every day. They're usually put in a structured situation (weekly classes, lessons) with EVERYDAY coaching from parents TO PRACTICE - usually pretty effective discipline. Some kids are very lucky to hear & experience music played from the day they are born! I think it becomes like learning a familiar language.
Grownups don't have those benefits, plus it's hard for many of us grownups to focus such discipline on ourselves when we have so many other priorities.
There is NO muscle memory.
...just pathways to different types of info storage in the brain. The brain controls all co-ordination of this info and implements action.
WHAT EVERY GROWNUP CAN DO: listen to a lot of music, try to focus on what you do & what you sound like, while practicing - to make sure what you learn ends up in a longer-term storage spot that can be accessed later.
- Re-use a pathway (practice a task you learn, repeatedly)
- Form multiple pathways to the same spot (practice other things associated, along with each task/idea you learn).
Josh Turkett - 3 Essential Ingredients of an Effective Practice Session Thread
Now, 'IF' the top professional musicians, who have already mastered their craft - STILL have to practice TWO HOURS EVERY DAY to maintain proficiency... what does that say about us?
How many hours a day do the World’s greatest classical musicians practice?
How many of us can free up our mind & schedule time to play even a little bit, every day?
I think it IS magic to make me want to keep coming back for more!
- Emily
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ELCBK said
There is NO muscle memory.
...just pathways to different types of info storage in the brain. The brain controls all co-ordination of this info and implements action.
Not literally, no. Psychologists call it procedural memory. I suppose it's more about training and sorting out motor nerve and neuron interconnections and firings.
Andrew
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'Procedural' memory is still stored in the brain, pretty deep/long-term storage - the subconscious. Stimuli still triggers your brain to send the signals that make your body respond, but it's such a strong, well-worn path (from MUCH repetition) - it's like a short cut.
Wish I had many years of self-disciplined, efficient music practice, to make sure my learning was stored in long-term memory & my synapses less 'plastic' - just stronger!
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Since the term being used is causing such a ruckus:
According to Webster:
Muscle Memory:
the ability to repeat a specific muscular movement with improved efficiency and accuracy that is acquired through practice and repetition
They practice their routines with mind-numbing repetitiveness, for hours and days, weeks and years, so that each spinning, twisting landing off the high bar becomes an act of muscle memory.
“Muscle memory.” Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.co.....e%20memory. Accessed 5 May. 2023.
It is just a conversation. I still like the term "muscle memory". It isn't a medical thesis, it is a thread on a forum and it describes, at least to me, what is being done by learning the finger placements. That is the context in which I used it. I also think that is what it was being used for earlier in the thread.
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...quotes from journalists, what's going on with online dictionaries?
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I dont know the correct scientific definition.. i know what the meaning of both are to me in my playing though and can describe..
Ill call it memorizing when I know how a tune goes and can play it from A MEMORY located somewhere in me head. BUT...if i have to talk or think about something else.. ill mess up eventually.
there is a very short list of tunes that i could play and talk to someone at same time..or say HUP to signal a tune change without losing where i am. 🙂 I think that memory is deeper and has become more solid. If i dont play that tune for a while like longer than a couple of weeks..once i start playing it comes back. memorized tunes fade quicker and im back to basically trying to learn it again. granted its not as long as when i first tried but its not like one i think is really learned.
another thing ive noticed is alot of times if im trying to learn something by ear..take for example the first note. more often ( not all the time ) now without thinking i can just go to that first note. it just happens. I guess it could be saying its a guess but its like i KNOW thats the note without doubt. weird.
why the rest of the notes following dont behave that way idk...sometimes alot of them do..but in general the process is much easier than when i started and is related to practicing learning a tune without the sheet music. and granted we are talking about what would be considered easier melodies. and ive done nothing but those types of melodies so im limiting what im concentrating on trying to learn.
im in my mid 50s and before 2017 never even picked up a violin so i think one can learn and develop some muscle memory or procedural subconscious type memory even later in life. I think focusing on something very specific helps..not trying to spread myself too thin over trying to learn a bunch of new stuff at once. Really listening to a recorded version alot ahead of time is one of the best things to aide. its like you give your brain a bit of a running start or something to build on..a foundation.
id call the fact that i dont have to even think about where fingers are supposed to go for a D scale muscle or subconscious or procedural memory..
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another thing ive noticed is alot of times if im trying to learn something by ear..take for example the first note. more often ( not all the time ) now without thinking i can just go to that first note. it just happens. I guess it could be saying its a guess but its like i KNOW thats the note without doubt. weird.
I don't know if I will explain this right, but in somewhat of a line with the above, I have begun trying to play songs from how I know, or think I know, they sound. With so many songs repeated with slight variations, that can get tricky. I can usually get that first note, and often times the next few notes, but rarely beyond that. If I cannot find that first note, though, forget it. I cannot go for the second note and back track to that first note. When I can find the first note, or notes, my fingers just go there on the fingerboard.
I think the first note or first few notes, for me, are the ones I can figure out is because, if I do not like the way a song starts, I tune it out. Those first few notes have always been the hook for me to pay attention to the song. Like a book, if the first few words, paragraphs, forward are not getting my interest, the book is put away.
Those first note(s) are important to me. They identify the song for me. I don't know what that note is, or what key it is in, but I can hit the note, or first few notes, on my viola, cello or violin. At which point, I do know what the note is. I do not know why that equates to hitting the right spot on the fingerboard of the viola, cello or violin, though. Sometimes, I have to slide around just a fraction to eliminate a flat or sharp sound, but that is about the only time I am really aware a note is sharp or flat. But, I am pretty close.
I cannot do that with a song that I am not fond of, even if I hear it a lot. I can't find that first note, or those first few notes on the fingerboard. For those songs, the note and location on the fingerboard do not have a connection.
Why is that? Just because I am not fond of the song? Is my brain just tuning it out and disconnecting from fingerboard placement? I have no idea. Maybe a combination of tuning it out and lack of enthusiasm to get it right? Maybe, it really does not have anything to do with any connection from what I hear and where the fingers go. Maybe, what you want to play has a bigger part in it.
I am not sure if I explained this clearly, if not, so sorry.
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I think there needs to be motivation for me to expend energy on a tune. If i dont care for it i wont attempt it. UNLESS in my case theres ones ive had to learn because it was part of a concert setlist. or people play it all the time in session and i want to be able to play with them.
If it wasnt for that i wouldnt learn them.. i may be able to play them but i wouldnt learn them.
Funny thing is..sometimes those tunes i once disliked become a favorite. which gives me motivation to give some more i dislike a shot. 😀
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I agree, @ABitRusty
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I think muscle memory is a pretty well known and accepted term, and most understand that it deals with repetitive action with a neurological result in the brain.
I think the skill of typing is a good demonstration of muscle memory. I also type well (probably the most worthwhile course I took in high school).
When you type well, you type words, not letters--i.e., you are thinking about the words you are needing to type, not the individual letters.
I've found learning the violin is similar--there are patterns, & when you have practiced (and practiced) them enough, you think of the patterns more than the individual notes.
When you look at (or hear) a piece of music, you start to recognize the patterns. And I suppose this is both visual and auditory--with some people better at one than the other.
I also came across this article recently, with accompanying video, that discusses music and dementia - how "procedural memory" (aka muscle memory--gained from repetition) remains intact despite other diminished functions in dementia patients.
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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