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Every once in a while I think of my Grandfather - who could supposedly pick up any string instrument & play it well, so started wondering how different are they - really?
I've read & heard too many times that specific instruments are 'melody' instruments & others strictly thought of as 'harmony' instruments - but for the sake of a general music mindset, why can't they all meet somewhere in the middle? ...making it easier to pick up any of them to play for their different timbre qualities? Okay, the violin/viola/cello is maybe hardest because so much depends on learning to use the bow - that's why we're here!
IMHO, I've always felt bowed strings should be equally 'melody' AND 'harmony' - and I think there's a lot to be learned from all the different styles of playing! Similar to how Classical players should learn from 'Fiddlers' & vise versa.
All you multi-instrumentalists - love to know your views!
A few months ago I watched a video of J.P. Cormier playing the fiddle (this is NOT Joseph Cormier). He has won a bunch of awards, plays: guitar, fiddle, twelve string guitar, upright bass, banjo, mandolin, drums, percussion, synthesizer, cello, tenor banjo and piano.
Wasn't until I heard him play guitar (then other instruments) that it all 'clicked' for me! I'm being a bit simplistic, but I can see how his style could easily be transferred to ALL the string instruments. This video seems best to illustrate my point:
Btw, I've heard it before, but read just the other day that 'Fiddlers' don't ever want to shift out of first position, or have their bow leave the strings & Classical players hate string crossings!
...of course this isn't always the case, but IMHO anyone who wants to learn these bowed instruments should not exclude any techniques - learning about all styles of playing can make you a better musician! 🤗
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I think you or a person should concentrate on what interest them. Unless its a career path or something. Then theres things you better know regardless of whether its fun or not. If one wants to not practice ..say vibrato... then they cant complain about no vibrato.. wish i knew how to play vibrato..
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ELCBK said
Btw, I've heard it before, but read just the other day that 'Fiddlers' don't ever want to shift out of first position, or have their bow leave the strings & Classical players hate string crossings!
It's absolutely not true that classical players hate string crossings; there are string-crossing passages in a lot of classical music and it's consider a core skill. (It's a personal weakness for me but that's mainly because I didn't get proper instruction on bowing until I had been playing for 16 years.) What classical players often try to avoid is crossing strings in the middle of a melodic phrase, especially if it's crossing over the the other string for only a note or two before crossing back. That's mostly because it's easier to maintain a consistent tone on one string. The parts of fiddle music that classical musicians actually tend to struggle with are the bowing patterns, unwritten rhythmic quirks, and understanding when to use ornaments.
The main limitation in learning multiple styles is time. I've dabbled in fiddle music, but I realized at some point that I don't have the time to get far beyond the surface because I'm a mostly-self-taught late starter (regular lessons only since 2021) playing in classical ensembles with very high expectations, and have had my practice time limited by injuries and health issues for most of the last six years. Maybe it would be different if bow control wasn't a personal weakness that I need to devote extra attention to.
One other thing: I also wouldn't be so quick to label instruments as "melody" or "harmony" instruments; that may be true to some extent in some (not all) folk traditions, and for the early Classical era in classical music, but in most of the music I play the viola has a fair amount of melodic material.
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@ABitRusty -
You are absolutely right!
...vibrato: 🤯🤬😖😱😤😵
I was thinking along the lines of just 'learning about' & maybe 'trying' things that may not seem 'normal' for our preferred 'style' - no one is a master of everything (outta my league), doesn't mean we can't look to apply certain aspects of many techniques to benefit our own playing.
I think the main reason I'm talking about this topic is because I've heard, more times than I can count (even about my Grandfather), statements along the lines of - "oh, that person is SO TALENTED to be able to play more than one instrument - they had to be born with talent like that!"
I don't think it's a matter of talent someone is born with, but just all the factors needed to learn any instrument, plus having a clear understanding of 'how' music works. I'm not sure I'll ever fully grasp it all, but I've learned more about music this last couple of years than in all the rest of my life - of course I wish I'd learned more about harmony, chords & chord progressions earlier.
I'd probably be more inclined to learn how to play other string instruments if I could settle & get comfortable with a way (style?) of playing melody combine with harmony (like it's the magic 'key' to unlocking my 'musicality'🤭), still a lot of work a head of me.
Always looking forward to more perspectives/views!
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@AndrewH -
Thanks - I'm sure I misunderstood about the 'string crossings' statement I read.
I think Double Bass gets screwed over a lot, but I know there are definitely some great melody parts for Viola AND Cello.
How often do 1st violins play harmony?
Don't all great Classical string solos have melody with harmony?
It's hard for me to ignore that I've seen fiddle & banjo festivals where they just grab a guitarist only to back up with chords, but that's just 'my' limited experience. Other than seeing a Rock solo, or Flamenco performance - I saw the guitar as mainly a harmony instrument. Up until right before I started violin, felt the same way about ukulele & mandolin.
Seeing that video of how J.P. Cormier plays several different instruments just makes sense to me, because he does play them like they are meant to be both melody and harmony.
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instruments playing backing AND melody... 🙂 it happens. the guitar player even gets in the act 😉
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In orchestras, although 1st violins typically get more melody than the other string sections, they actually play a fair amount of harmony. Sometimes it's when lower strings have melody, and there are many passages where the melody is entirely in woodwinds or brass and all the strings are accompanying.
Even the double bass has its moments, though they are fewer. Take, for example, Beethoven's 9th: the famous "Ode to Joy" melody is introduced by the double basses!
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It would be enjoyable to amuse myself with other stringed instruments. I have never played cello, but I suspect that I could catch onto it relatively easily and soon be able to produce deplorable music. And the richness of cello’s lower register would be a thrill!
But it would be foolish for me to seriously attempt to play multiple instruments, given my limited time and brainpower. That would surely dilute my efforts and make for less progress.
ELCBK touched on the issue of melody vs harmony:
I'd probably be more inclined to learn how to play other string instruments if I could settle & get comfortable with a way (style?) of playing melody combine with harmony (like it's the magic 'key' to unlocking my 'musicality'🤭), still a lot of work a head of me.
I do play both fiddle and mandolin because I view them as cousins which can support one another. Mandolin is clearly capable of playing both lead and backup, fiddle somewhat less so. But we have all heard fiddlers who can make their little instrument sing with clarity while at the same time producing rhythm and harmony. In the old days a solo fiddle could keep everyone dancing.
Additionally, mandolin is useful when I’m trying to pick out a new tune. Without bowing and intonation issues, mando can make it easier to get a melody under my fingers and into my brain. And the mando’s chordal strengths call attention to the drones, double-stops and fills that enrich the fiddle’s excellence in melody. And, while the two instruments are closely related, the ability to go back and forth relieves drudgery and freshens my experience as a music student.
Still, that gift banjo hanging on my wall does occasionally tempt me...
Strabo
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I think this is a pretty good example of what can be done to vary the harmony/melody roll with just stringed instruments.
And another example... pro obviously... but of how a guitar player can play the melody and harmony/backing together.
I think it all depends on the setting and what the muscian can do techique wise and what music is being played. I think like what your getting at.. Its good to push the limits on what we do and try new things on an instrument. Just because an instrument is normally viewed in a particular roll doesnt mean it cant provide another. I think maybe when learning theres usually a path laid out thats common across methods.. and is different depending on the instrument.
Scales are common to all.. arpeggios... chords seem bigger subject for guitars pianos.. you wont find as much discussion about vibrato in mandolin methods.. it uses a different technique to sustain ..add flavor to long notes. I have not seen any string bending techniques in a violin book. you will in a guitar book. Sliding a finger up on a string from below a note up to its pitch isnt something i think a piano can do.. Some players such as floyd cramer had a way to sorta get that slide or bent note sound with how he played
Seems all generic though.. comes down to what a person wants/can do...what one practices... another general statement. 🙂
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@Strabo -
Thanks! Appreciate your insight!
@ABitRusty & @AndrewH -
Thank you!
Yes, there are great examples of individuals playing one instrument and examples of great music composed for one particular instrument.
Really wanted to take a closer look at being a multi-instrumentalist - mainly people who play like 6 (or more, including any keyboards) & how they translate music across each of their instruments.
I am curious to find out if multi-instrumentalists think starting with one particular string instrument makes it easier to pick up learning others. Obviously Violin, Viola, Cello, Irish Tenor Banjo & Mandolin - all have strings at least tuned in 5ths. Nyckelharpa, pretty much - tuned like Viola except the 'D' string is lowered 1 whole step (C). I don't believe anyone has to be 'born talented' to have success exploring other string instruments (if time allowed, come on kids! 😉). Didn't we have a discussion somewhere else, suggesting learning (or already knowing?) how to play other instruments might help with playing violin/viola in the process?
Greg, you fit the profile! What instrument did you start with? Do you think of each of your instruments differently (musically)? Feels like you started to touch on it.
The cool thing (to me) is that ALL string instruments produce different, unique sounds - whether playing melody, harmony, or both. Maybe a ways down the road I'll still feel adventurous enough to even consider a Nyckelharpa or Hurdygurdy, but I already have several other instruments that occasionally call to me - some begging to be repaired/refurbished.
🤔... will working with a DAW & midi controller eventually take away the lure of learning new instruments?
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@elcbk said...What instrument did you start with? Do you think of each of your instruments differently (musically)?
saxaphone in grade school for a couple of years.
as a younger adult poked around with an alfred adult piano learner method and never got very far.
maybe 10 years ago guitar which led to some mandolin. the style of music i liked led to fiddle not the desire to master the fiddle. I just liked how fiddle music sounded being played on a fiddle. figured instead of trying to always make it fit on guitar id cut the chase and try to learn it on fiddle. which led to Irish.
yes i think of them different i guess. theyre different instruments. i think you have to. music theory is same but theyre different animals
Id say 90% of time is spent on fiddle. The rest is exploring that tune on other instruments. putting them all together and making some noise.
will working with a DAW & midi controller eventually take away the lure of learning new instruments?
I dont understand the question really. midi controller is usually a piano keyboard so youd be playing piano or sorta depending on what you do. If someone composes a song or tune from nothing on just a DAW using sampled libraries.. they still wrote a song or tune. Thats like saying to all other instruments if you dont play it on piano its not the real deal. on the other hand most reasonable people know if they play loch lomond on a sampled bagpipe its not the same as playing it on a bagpipe. But if Im putting together something that would sound nice with a nykleharpa in the background.. using a sampled library could work. think theres been alot of that going on since the 70s . synths keyboards.. that kinda thing. no real instrument except the piano keyboard.
I think maybe confusing instrument mastery to playing music is what seems to be a sticking point. Music being relative to what one defines as such 😉🙂
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@ABitRusty -
Thank You!
Sorry... started down a couple rabbit holes. 🤣
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i figured it was a take off your shoes a sit a spell type topic.
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The violin and viola are actually my fourth and fifth instruments. My first was piano, which was my main instrument through college. I played euphonium and trombone in school bands, started teaching myself violin in my last year of high school, and picked up viola a year later. I resumed playing euphonium for my senior year of college because I had a bit of extra time. Currently I play viola more than 95% of the time, and violin and piano occasionally. I have a ukulele and can play a little, but I haven't spent a lot of time trying to learn it.
I've tried to learn the guitar too, but found it impossible. The left hand position is extremely uncomfortable for me and is painful to hold for longer than a minute or two; I'm not sure whether it's because of small hands or because I'm so used to viola.
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@ABitRusty -
You know me too well.
@AndrewH -
Thanks a bunch!
Very interesting - you really have learned a mix of insruments, too!
I know J.P. Cormier started at age 5 on guitar, but not yet seeing any common thread tying early starting age or starting instrument together.
I have no idea what instrument my Grandfather started with & many years past being able to ask anyone.
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@AndrewH yeah guitars can be painful. I got rid of the drednaugt size and went to smaller body styles for that reason. Not that youre interested in them anymore but if you or someone reading has same issues, try a baby taylor or maybe a nylon strung. Cordoba makes this thats not a classical make.
I have some problems with my left arm even with fiddle due to shoulder.
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@ABitRusty -
That's a really good point.
I tried what appeared to me to be a regular size guitar, but I couldn't comfortably use my left hand in any way for me to see what I was doing. So, it's under a bed somewhere.
...it never occurred to me that I had the option of a smaller size guitar. At what size do you start to notice a loss of that classically beautiful acoustic 'guitar' sound?
Next, I jumped down to ukulele - but I made the mistake of starting with an Applause Ovation (rounded back) & gave up trying to figure out how to keep it from moving around while I was learning to play. Hope to return to it after I can spend time on my banjolele, if the fiddle doesn't keep me fiddlin' around forever!
...I have tremendous respect for lute players. (lol)
@stringy -
How much trouble did you have learning to hold the bazouki still while playing (having it's rounded back)?
If you learned guitar 1st, do you think that helped you be able to play bazouki? In other words, do you think the bazouki's rounded back would make it a difficult instrument to start learning music with?
Found this interesting... think I heard it from a J.P. Cormier video - that the violin (viola & cello included) was the one instrument he felt MUST be practiced consistently. He warned if practiced only sporadically, we'd end up taking many steps backwards - not just pickup where we 'left off' & said it wasn't exactly the same with non-bowed, fretted string instruments. ...anyone find this to be true?
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ELCBK said
That's a really good point.I tried what appeared to me to be a regular size guitar, but I couldn't comfortably use my left hand in any way for me to see what I was doing. So, it's under a bed somewhere.
...it never occurred to me that I had the option of a smaller size guitar. At what size do you start to notice a loss of that classically beautiful acoustic 'guitar' sound?
Next, I jumped down to ukulele - but I made the mistake of starting with an Applause Ovation (rounded back) & gave up trying to figure out how to keep it from moving around while I was learning to play. Hope to return to it after I can spend time on my banjolele, if the fiddle doesn't keep me fiddlin' around forever!
...I have tremendous respect for lute players. (lol)
@stringy -
How much trouble did you have learning to hold the bazouki still while playing (having it's rounded back)?
If you learned guitar 1st, do you think that helped you be able to play bazouki? In other words, do you think the bazouki's rounded back would make it a difficult instrument to start learning music with?
Found this interesting... think I heard it from a J.P. Cormier video - that the violin (viola & cello included) was the one instrument he felt MUST be practiced consistently. He warned if practiced only sporadically, we'd end up taking many steps backwards - not just pickup where we 'left off' & said it wasn't exactly the same with non-bowed, fretted string instruments. ...anyone find this to be true?
I have a 000-28 which I think youd have a hard time telling wasnt a Dred size. 000 is about 2 sizes down from dred. That "classical acoutic guitar sound" has more to do with woods, bracing, and builder to me. and it will be just like anything else instrument oriented... its what you prefer. In a taylor theres several sizes to choose from. fiddlershop carries them now. Martin has the dred, 000, 00, 0 sizes. Taylors are smooth to play.. their neck made it easier to learn on. Martin since then has tweaked their necks it seems to me and i cant tell much difference anymore.
I dont think any instrument is like riding a bike. Fiddle is difficult for sure. Its veen and still is a monster to try and sound even close to decent. ...but I noticed not practicing guitar too. you trade off having frets vs not on fiddle for the pick vs bow, finger reach, and pain associated with building calloses again when they soften. they all take time. yeah granted fiddle has been and still is a monster. like i said.. eaxh has their thing that once past starting kinda success makes them difficult to keep progressing. the plateau.
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@elcbk asked..
At what size do you start to notice a loss of that classically beautiful acoustic 'guitar' sound?
maybe will help
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@ABitRusty -
Hey Thanx!
That comparison is a huge help!
I really like the sound of acoustic guitar, but I'm still attracted to the idea of tuning a ukulele & banjo like violin/viola - at least to begin with.
🤔... think it's pretty amazing that I haven't gotten bored with my violin or my viola by now.
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