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Was wondering how many people onhere learn all the different scales. I myself only bother with the ones I know I will actually use which is, the Irish ones like g, d and so on, and a few minor scales, and a couple of flat, like b. I could never remember when playing one of the sharp scales such as f sharp which notes to sharpen, and if I did need to play something in that key I would just learn the tune and work out the sharps as I play it.
I suppose one of the good things about most trad is the fact that they are in easy keys.
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@stringy, I don't play scales. Well, maybe once in a blue moon, to warm up, but rarely. Just the typical C, G, and D.
That said, I am not into the technicalities of music like all the rest of you are. The conversations are wayyyy over my head. I just play sheet music, or things I pick out by ear. When I took lessons, my first instructor, I asked about scales when they were not being done, because I thought that is what you do. She said that she does not do scales.
I have also read, from experienced players, a big amount of them do not do scales and never used them to learn to play. I have not figured out the purpose, other than practice for fingering, and I don't think scales are necessary for that either. I have a few pieces of sheet music that are fingering involved. I use them. The music makes sense, therefore the fingering makes sense to me, scales do not. I only use them when I am having fingering issues, and just for that purpose.
I don't tweak music, I don't write music, all the posts about scales, keys, etc boggle my mind. I just look at the sheet music and if it is something in my range, or close to my range that I might be able to exoand on, I try to play it. The key it is in, makes no difference to me, the scale for that key means nothing to me. I don't play with others, very casual playing.
So, scales are not important to me. Based on conversations I have had with a few other teachers, they don't do scales, either, and it is making me think that they are just an old exercise that has been handed down over the centuries.
I could be wrong on all of this, but for me, scales just confuse me, might warm up with them, but no serious use for them to be able to play, for me, or help me learn.
I know that I have caused a lot of teeth to grind just now, but, I am not student of music, I just like playing my violin, viola and cello.
I hope this makes sense.
Interesting question, by the way.
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If I was being paid to play fiddle, I’d probably dig in and drill the scales.
But I’m not getting paid for this. I’m an amateur fiddler, really just a student of music, and I play for my own enlightenment and enjoyment.
To warm up, I do play some arpeggios in basic fiddle keys. But it’s pretty quick, and I’m ready to rock just as soon as my ear is synced up with my fingers.
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Mouse, I get what you say, and also Strabos comment about enjoyment and if it was a profession.
The scales I do play which isnt many, I do for the intonation practice, but to be honest I find learning any more a bit of chore and it does distract from playing anything.
The reason for my post was that today has been terrible weather outside, and so I have been playing lots of tunes and came across a book I must have bought when I started learning, Hrimaly book of scale studies, I did a few and then started to get into ones like E flat minor, and started to think do I really need to learn these, especially for the type of music I play, then I thought about the old style Irish fiddlers who wouldnt have known a c sharp scale if they fell over it, everything was learned by ear.
I know all the scales on guitar, but its a bit different, because they are really distinct box patterns, and are useful if you play with others in a band as I once did, or for jamming, you could just say what key are you in and then play a scale from that key like a blues one or some other, but its a lot easier on guitar because you just remember the shapes, and they follow a very logical pattern. Violin is a different kettle of fish, and I find myself wasting time doing things like practicing something like a scale in 6ths when I will never use it.
Good to know that others are not hung up on them either;) thanks to you both for your thoughts.
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You are welcome, Stringy. I am pleased to know that two who play way beyond me, and have knowledge of music way beyond me, are similar to my thoughts about this.
I hope you get more feedback on this. I liked this question.
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I did learn all the major and minor scales and arpeggios, though I don't practice them all regularly. I play mostly classical music, and I'd be very surprised if there's any major or minor key that I haven't had to play in by now.
(Speaking of E-flat minor, lately I've been spending a lot of time practicing a tricky passage in E-flat minor in one of my orchestra pieces.)
I use the scales and arpeggios mostly as part of my warm-up. At any given time, I typically practice the tonic and dominant scales and the Flesch arpeggio sequences for the keys of the pieces I'm working on at that time, because they're helpful with intonation and the finger patterns I'll find in the piece. I also practice chromatic scales if I'm working on any piece that contains chromatic runs. If I'm working on a long orchestra piece that changes keys a lot, I'll normally practice the scales and arpeggios for the keys that trickier passages are in.
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Thanks mouse, though I am not way beyond anyone, in music or playing, very nice of you though;)
Andrew thanks for the insight into your playing and practicing routine, it sounds extremely daunting to me, and probably for me would be too much to handle, in fact it would be too much, but obviously for classical which is very complicated it is one of the things you have no choice but to do. I wouldnt have the dedication, and I take my hat off to you.
I do practice chromatic scales fairly often as I think they are very useful, for intonation, but I must admit I usually dont go out of first position for them, even so, I think the notes, of F, and C, become more familiar in the memory.
As for E flat minor, maybe I should memorise it and write a jig in the key, it would probably be a first in Irish music, I could call it something like,
The Fiddlers Nightmare;)
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🤔... I don't learn by specific scale, but by type. That way I can start on any note.
I think the Major & Minor scale pattern is kinda engrained in my mind from general music exposure as a kid in school.
When reading notation, I believe it does help to know the scale or mode being used - but when I'm learning a melody by ear, I don't have to identify (or label) any specific scale/mode... even though I did start trying to do so. Of course the drawback is I have to 'hear' other scales or a mode 'type' before I can think of using it in other keys. I can't just think "oh, that's X scale or pattern I hear", or "I'll just shift the X scale pattern over a whole step to play X mode" - don't think I'll live long enough to see that happen!
Most genres favor some particular scales or modes. I picked up Dorian from Irish music and Mixolydian mainly from Scottish, but recently found Phrygian & Phrygian Dominant used in other genres I like.
Makes sense to become familiar with whatever the music you like uses. Target tunes that utilize the scales/modes you want to learn. There's usually reasons why tunes are played in certain keys, worth finding out. ANY scale can become easy, feel natural, if we hear & practice using it enough (even if just in tunes).
...anyone learning with a teacher should follow their teacher's instructions on practicing scales.
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I have a fingering system which makes it easy to play all scales 3 octaves. It's probably just a curiosity, but it's satisying to be able to do. The final octave on the E string is always, except in G major, fingered 21212344. Every scale from Bb upwards starts on 2nd finger on the G string then shifts up two positions on the A string, so it's not a system for those who want to base their playing around one or two positions (which my teacher seems to be doing and which is possibly best).
If a rare scale comes up in an orchestral piece, it won't necessarily fit the above pattern, due to context, so I'll choose the position and fingering according to which position I need to end up in for what follows (a scale might often be just an introduction to a more interesting passage). Twice I've had the keys of B major and G#minor crop up, for example, probably both Brahms, lol!
During my 14 months of lessons, my teacher has drilled me in G, A and D [added: D beginning in 1st posn and beginning in 3rd posn], two octaves, then G, A and C, three octaves.
When you practise scales, everything gets practised, not just "scales". We begin by playing one note per bow, so that we look at tone (at the frog and in the middle and at the tip), parallel bowing, RH hold, relaxed right shoulder, slow shifting, left elbow and finger placement, etc. We avoid vibrato - intonation must always be done by the LH fingers, never by adjusting the hand position. When we get back down we go up and down again, this time two notes per bow. This changes the emphasis on the shifts somewhat, it also begins the effort to minimise the effect of the shift on the bowing speed (slow bows can inadvertently become jerky when the left hand shifts, especially if it shifts too fast). Third run through is 4 notes per bow, then 8 then 16, or 12 and 24 depending on rhythm preferred. Finally we do all 48 notes up and down on one bow both slow staccato and legato, first down bow then up bow. I have tippexed the centre of my bow so that I know I have used the correct amount of bow each time.
The fingering system she prefers, I have noticed, favours third position (and 5th, 7th, 9th). The final octave tends to be 12121234. That puts me in 9th position in C major, which is the limit of my comfort. She warns against removing the thumb from the heel of the violin (and summer, the season of sweat, is coming, lol!)
I am wondering how she will do D major. 9th position in C major is settled when I reach the G with my first finger. Staying in 9th position, D could then easily be finished 12344 from the G (as in paragraph 1). Failing that, we'd go to 10th position, which I doubt would be her style. Otoh, one does develop the ability to stretch - e.g. when I was learning CG.
Both teachers have tended to prefer coming down from the highest positions to first position ASAP on the E string (whereas the system in paragraph 1 comes down gradually via the A string). In that way shifting technique is improved - I used to get friction burns on the E string, but that was my fault. Finger pressure must be released when shifting. These are all things you do wrong when you don't have a teacher! (Warning!)
I haven't timed myself playing one of these scales, but if it takes 15 minutes, it's worth it because so many different elements of technique get practised during that time. And it's a perfectly valid warm-up exercise, as long as it's treated seriously, and not flippantly.
We haven't done any minor scales - I don't think she thinks they are a problem. What would get practised? The occasional semitone interval and the occasional piece of odd fingering, all done ad hoc already anyway (when I suggested doing Sitt 2nd position exercises, she said there's no point since we're already playing Bach anyway). The harmonic minors might be worth looking at for the augmented seconds (theory refresher - C to Db is a minor second, C to D is a major second, C to D# is an augmented second). We do the occasional three-octave arpeggio - G, A, D (2 octaves), but not obsessively. Done the same way - 1 note per bow, 3 notes, etc, they are over in no time, as they contain fewer notes, and the rate is trebled.
Those of us, self included, who know they don't play their violas enough should probably spend 15 minutes a day playing a scale as above on them, e.g. C over 3 octaves.
Andrew
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Gordon, I do a few 3 octave ones but mainly like I said I dont really get hung up on them, and do them for intonation, for some reason I have always had a problem with the note E, so just recently have been paying attention making sure I hit it exactly and not even 1 cent out. Which I do with all my practice. I do play quite a few scales in 3rd position but only the ones I mentioned in my first post, and only because a few of the tunes I do play drift into third.
After reading Andrews post I learned E flat minor in the first position to hear what its like, but I really cant see any folk tunes which would use it, so have ditched it 😉
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Emily, I would have strongly suspected that you are into scales 😉 without you saying it, I know you are really into the theory side. You are right about the Dorian Irish tune connection, it has a unique sound I think.
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Gordon Shumway said
The fingering system she prefers, I have noticed, favours third position (and 5th, 7th, 9th). The final octave tends to be 12121234. That puts me in 9th position in C major, which is the limit of my comfort. She warns against removing the thumb from the heel of the violin (and summer, the season of sweat, is coming, lol!)
My teacher prefers a different fingering system for the final octave: 12312344 going upward for all the scales that start on first finger (i.e. all except C), same in reverse going downward in major scales but 43213213 going downward in minor scales. I get the distinct impression that violists, especially those with smaller hands, use even-numbered positions much more than violinists do.
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@stringy -
...saw in an old discussion on The Session - well, it is pertaining to learning 'fiddle tunes' by ear.
"Scales are just very bad tunes. If you learn scales you have then to make the leap from very bad tunes (scales) to good tunes."
I personally think it's a great idea to identify the scale a new tune uses & if not a familiar one, practice it before learning the tune... fingers will find the notes easier (especially learning by ear).
Like Mouse, I don't go out of my way to practice scales unless I run into a trouble spot... like with the 'Wistful Thinking' tune I composed. The Cm phrases caught me by surprise, so I practiced that scale to get used to my 3rd & 4th finger placements. It became much more comfortable to play.
🤔... there are finger shapes & patterns on the fiddle, but maybe they're more genre specific - common scales, type of melodic structure (spot similar phrasing), common double-stops. Also, you can pretty much play the same fingering pattern you use for a melody in 1st position (playing across strings with no open string use) up anywhere else on the fingerboard... you'll just be in a different key, which can sound exciting (except when you play with someone else 😄)!
Before I came to the forum & started learning the fiddle, I thought there were ONLY Major & Minor scales, 2 kinds... period. Blew my mind to find there were 'other' minor scale types, specific scales for the 'Blues', pentatonic scales and 'modes'! It was already cool how different a 'minor' scale sounds/feels vs a 'major' scale - even when they both utilize the EXACT same notes! BUT, finding more of their 'brothers/sisters' on the 'Modal Circle of Fifths' to use... opened up some nice modulation ideas for me.
🤭 Geez, I'll probably have to make it to my 10th year Fiddle Anniversary before I settle down. ...time flies!
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AndrewH said
Gordon Shumway said
The fingering system she prefers, I have noticed, favours third position (and 5th, 7th, 9th). The final octave tends to be 12121234. That puts me in 9th position in C major, which is the limit of my comfort. She warns against removing the thumb from the heel of the violin (and summer, the season of sweat, is coming, lol!)
My teacher prefers a different fingering system for the final octave: 12312344 going upward for all the scales that start on first finger (i.e. all except C), same in reverse going downward in major scales but 43213213 going downward in minor scales. I get the distinct impression that violists, especially those with smaller hands, use even-numbered positions much more than violinists do.
Yes, I haven't yet done anything with my viola except rosin the bow and tune it, rerosin the bow, retune it, lol.
My idea of 15 minutes a day on a viola scale came to me as I was writing that post, and so I must start transferring scale practice from violin to viola generally to get a basic grasp of the differences.
Those who don't routinely play 3 octave scales on either instrument should just try to find a comfortable position to play the top octave first. In my case that means thumb on the heel, first finger reaches G on the E string, but don't try to hold all four fingers down on the E string - that's too uncomfortable. Use the index as an anchor, and having just the index and the pinky on the E string should be OK. Since I've been through all that on the violin, I'll be applying it the viola ASAP.
Andrew
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ELCBK said
Don't forget the Japanese pentatonic (part of the Phrygian family)
BCEFABCEF etc. I bought a flute with a B-foot so I could play Sakura on it (beginning on A)
Andrew
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@stringy -
I do want to bring up a couple 'pro-scale' points shared by members a while ago - beyond fiddling.
From the Modal Scale/Keys Thread (pg 3), AndrewH said: "20th century classical music explores all kinds of scales, beyond reviving the church modes." ...and went on to give some really FABULOUS examples (post #49)!
On pg 4 (post #71), SharonC said:
Scale work is really important. There have been times that my teacher has said something like, “. . . and you see here the arpeggios coming up…” & I’ve said, “You see arpeggios. . . I see a whole lot of 16th notes coming up too fast. . .” Recognizing the patterns comes with practice, both seeing it in the music & feeling the patterns on the fingerboard.
@Gordon Shumway -
Thanks - I recently had reason to peruse the Chord Progressions for Improv Thread. On pg 3, you mentioned the 'In' Japanese pentatonic scale and I talked about using the 'Yo' (Japanese Major Pentatonic). I did end up learning more about other Japanese scales & about playing the shakuhachi music, using their notation, etc... Thought I started sharing more of this somewhere, maybe got sidetracked.
Anyway, I was just listening to more Min'yō (traditional Japanese Folk Songs) last week!
I'm still VERY interested in learning to capture the pitch variations/sliding heard in the vocal melody parts - to play on the fiddle/viola. LOVE these work/trade folk songs/chants are so celebrated during festivals! Originally sung a capella, but I've also heard them accompanied by drums, shamisen & shinobue. Not completely sure why I'm so attracted to these songs... maybe it's the SCALES! ...I'm surprised by how 'happy' some of these songs feel.
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ELCBK said
shakuhachi music,
I thought about buying a shakuhachi a while back. There are nice-looking ones on Amazon, plastic or bamboo, but it's a dangerous gamble - even for $500 you get a "Japanese shakuhachi 1.8" "region of origin China", and the cost and the possibly inauthentic intonation meant I preferred to buy a flute. A Japanese instrument will probably cost twice as much. I think I've got a CD of shakuhachi music somewhere - problem is I'm decluttering, so I'm putting all my CDs in storage boxes, apart from the classical ones. One day if I feel I'm $350 richer than I should be, I'll get a plastic shakuhachi 1.8. But apparently they risk import-duty, even on Amazon, beware!
Andrew
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Just had a very brief go at some scales on the viola.
There are differences due to transposition.
On the violin the easiest 3-octave scales are G-D, with Eb to F# best kept to 2 octaves, unless you have bigger hands, or have practised them more, than me.
That works out on viola as C-G over 3 octaves, with Ab - B over 2 octaves.
BUT my initial finding was that G over three octaves on viola is trickier than D over 3 octaves on the violin. At least if you keep your thumb on the heel, which is more obtrusive on the viola. So if you ignore G and F#, three-octaves scales on the viola are easiest in the keys of C to F. Otoh, if you practise G over three octaves on the viola, that will benefit your violin playing. [added: next day tried again - no, F is my limit]
The most common keys for string orchestra music are G, D and A, with E coming fourth (Puccini's Chrysanthemums is C# minor. Elgar was quite keen on E). E isn't a bad scale at all to practise over three octaves on the viola - starts comfortably in first position (I haven't played it yet, though. I suppose fingering 2,3,4 on the C string might be tricky if you have small hands). A is the only swine. With E being a swine on violin. But my violist teacher didn't like the key of E major, I recall.
Andrew
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Discussions like these always make me think about whether (or not) I want to change what I am doing... maybe even try something completely new. Love it!
I can understand the benefits of scales - and I know there are tried & true methods for practicing them... I'm just not connecting.
With six strings, I have a lot of extra room to play scales!
🤔... just need a way to make them mean something more to 'me'. If I learn more by hearing, scales don't matter to me if I just need to listen for where intervals appear closer (or farther) apart.
What does matter to me - it's after I learn a tune. When I don't need to play along with a recording anymore, I'll choose at least one other key (not just another string, but same 'type' of scale) & a different octave to add. BUT, it's been making me feel kinda lazy - even though it makes me learn different fingerings, I'm usually not finding reason to venture very far out of 1st position.
So, I have pondered the potential benefit of using parts of a favorite tune as an etude - and whether (or not) to just play it immediately after playing each scale octave... maybe also practice changing the tonality with different 'types' of keys/modes.
BUT, good intentions won't get me very far if I feel I'm practicing too much stuff I'll never put to use... like when I tried practicing a bunch of double stops (didn't last long).
🤔... there are a ton of visual aides for 4-string fiddles - NOT ANY for 6 strings spaced a fifth apart! Been thinking I could draw out a map/chart of 'my' entire fingerboard, which might help me learn to strategize better on 6 strings, easily see areas I could target for practice.
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To answer Stringy and Emily.
You can learn all the scales because it's easy to devise systems. But I don't practise them all. It's more important to practise a few just for technique.
And yes, there are a thousand mind-blowing scales and modes, Emily. But that's all the more reason not to practise them all!
In addition I think we mentioned before that modes aren't just scales - they are also collections of appropriate licks. This is especially true in ragas (this is true in Gregorian Dorian: unfortunately Eric Tayor doesn't go beyond this). And there's no point in practising the scales without the licks.
I'm sure I've posted Sumik Datta before, but I'll do it again.
Or maybe you'd like to sing Indian classical music. Watch these 8 videos!
I only posted those singing videos because
they are so dreadful they are a joke
But Soumik's upbringing was far from traditional!
Andrew
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