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Chord Progressions for Improv
Useful to learn.
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (26 votes) 
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ABitRusty
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May 21, 2022 - 10:07 pm
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Chords are the landscape..

 Melody is the story.

thats some free zen stuff there.

coffee1

hats_off

laugh

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

So, you don't feel there's any potential emotional contribution from the chords or Chord Progression

 

*edited (refer to #47 & 48)

I've been learning about Japanese scales - they're mostly Pentatonic.  This C 'Yo' Scale is a C Major Pentatonic, with the 3rd & 7th removed. 

*The C Yo Scale is ALSO the 5th Mode of the F Major Pentatonic Scale - took me a while to figure this out, but thanks to ABitRusty - I finally understand why. 

 

 

Btw, this Japanese 'Yo' Scale = the Chinese 'Zi' Mode, in the Key of C, both have the 3rd & 7th removed.

Our Western Major Pentatonic Scale = the Japanese 'Ritsu' Scale, both have the 4th & 7th removed. 

 

Amazingly different feelings, depending on which note is removed.

🤔... new thread topic. (lol) 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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So, you don't feel there's any potential emotional contribution from the chords or Chord Progression?

I actually think the opposite..  I think the chords play a huge roll in emotional contribution and can alter the melodies affect or direction.   Thats why i like using backing tracks and see what happens.  changing chords, key, can lead to different results when you are playing around with improvisation.  chords are kinda like the backdrop or setting that can draw out or alter an improvised melody... rhythm tracks even more so.   a rhythm track with some chords playing on it and you coming up with melodies just by practicing scales is fun...and interesting once you get started.   

im talking about improv not putting a backing track to an existing melody.   two different things.  in the case of knowing a melody ahead of time...its fun to try different chords..  start diatonic then just try different things.  see what works what doesnt.   write that down and then go back to theory and maybe see why it worked...or reasons why if your needing to know the science.

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ELCBK
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May 24, 2022 - 12:53 pm
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https://i.pinimg.com/736x/90/7f/b0/907fb0301c96352ee84909e4843d590e--book-jacket-memes.jpg

@ABitRusty -

Thanx for clarifying that! 

Your previous statement about chords being the landscape had me Confucioused. 😳

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ABitRusty
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May 24, 2022 - 1:34 pm
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no prob...  but I still sorta feel that way about them.   the landscape statement isnt negated by my next.  If you see a nice sunny scene of a lake and asked to come up with some short story about it vs an apocolyptic cityscape... youre probably more likely to place the zombies in the cityscape.  for the most part..in general. rofl.

minor chord progressions vs major... yadda yadda blah blah.   seems like its been a thing to me. 

now you could intentionally change that around... BUT that falls into the 2nd post...you sorta KNOW thats what youre doing...taking a melody that sounds one way and giving it a different feel with chords.

listen to how Dennis Cahill frames Martin Hayes fiddle playing.  the way the chords and backing is played helps change and/or add to the mood..to me.   complements the way he fiddles tunes.    

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ELCBK
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May 24, 2022 - 2:51 pm
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YES! 

Totally agree - that's one of the reasons why I think Chord Progressions and chord choices are important - should be mentioned more. 

 

BUT, it doesn't HAVE to be provided by a guitar or other harmony instrument - I believe we can also intermingle it, make it more prominent within our melodies on a single Violin/Viola. 

This also relates to classical music, even though harmony/chord changes occur internally, where different instruments only play a small part of the whole. 

People learning Classical Violin should also be concerned with chords & Chord Progressions, because if they see how this works - adding certain chord & harmony notes, normally played by other instruments, can help create the difference between a mediocre Solo piece and a FABULOUS one - for GREAT personal enjoyment! 

 

Don't most people think of the Violin as just a melody instrument?

I would have appreciated getting a glimpse of WHY it's important to learn more than just dots on a page for Fiddle tunes and Classical Violin - sooner... especially so that I understood how the violin can be an amazing harmony AND melody instrument, all in one. 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/70/5c/c4/705cc49f613444e03abf21f1ef40a996.jpg

 

Sorry, absolutely NOTHING against jamming with others!

I know where I want to go, searching for my best path... just not aiming to come anywhere close to Roman Kim in my lifetime.  (lol) 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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May 24, 2022 - 6:07 pm
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i dont know anything about the Yo scale but relating to modes..

If by definition the Yo scale is built  from the 5th degree of F major pentatonic then the I triad would be from a C.. he probably found an F inversion worked better placing the C note in bass..   Basing off his video and what he explained.   

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

OMG - THANK YOU for making me stop & think!

...this'll make YOUR head spin. 🤣

I screwed up - saying F didn't exist in 'the' Major Pentatonic Scale, maybe thinking C Major Pentatonic doesn't have F - but I was caught up wondering "why NOT the C Mode from the F Yo Scale?"  

Then I got waylaid by Wikipedia talking about Pentatonic scales being hemitonic or anhemitonic (the Yo Scale being the latter) - but no talk of Modes!

I got what you were saying, but this guy throwing PENTATONIC MODES at me threw me for a loop!  ...even had me wondering if he was talking about the F Mixolydian Pentatonic scale! 😳

FIRST OF ALL, I didn't know that pentatonic 'mode' note positions were counted as if the notes were still in their original Major Scale - e.g., the C in the F Major Pentatonic Scale is the 5th, not my 4th - and C is ALSO the 5th, not my '4th of the F Yo Scale'.  I thought they were counted as their new (1,2,3,4,5) pentatonic positions!

...until I found this view of the F Major Pentatonic Scale... duh. 🥴

The guy in the video said the Yo Scale was a Major Pentatonic Scale with the 3rd & 7th removed - this is true for ALL Yo Scales - pattern is 1,2,4,5,6.  AND I know for the Major Pentatonic Scale, the 4th & 7th are removed - pattern 1,2,3,5,6.

I had to find if the F Yo scale could still possibly be used as a less confusing alternative to the F Major Pentatonic.  Found the scale & counted out the pattern starting on C - finally, saw it DOES NOT WORK.  So (another duh), the C Yo Scale is NOT also the C Mode of the F Yo Scale. 

BB5076.pngImage Enlarger

Think I now understand! 

 

Image Enlarger

Geez, what a stretch - almost thought it was a free-for-all!  

Now, I have to look at the video again, because I've lost ALL sense of what the Chord Progression was doing and what I originally wanted to talk about! 😵

I actually feel pretty stupid, thinking a scale could be a Mode for more than one other scale, but confess I'm still not 100% sure it's not possible somewhere.

Thanx again, for helping me!

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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May 25, 2022 - 9:32 am
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@elcbk 

yeah c mix has same notes as F maj.  but root is C.  chords will be arranged different though.

cant help you anymore on Yo scale.  Tell me a tunes is in mixolydian, dorian,maj, or minor and I may get an idea of where its going and am happy...

the backing player would have to be concerned with what chords to play at that point.  I probably would ask..what did you do there and get an idea of why they chose whatever they chose.. then maybe later try and piece it tovether again and learn from that on guitar.  maybe try and figure out what double stops sound good with the melody looping off recording in the background.

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Gordon Shumway
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Whereas Sakura Sakura uses the in scale.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Thanks so much! 

The Yo Scale is simple enough, but I'm still not 100% clear if the F/C, I64 chord inversion is F,A,C... or something else, like you said. 🤔  

I think the rest of the chords are standard, e.g., the iv chord is Dm, so just (D,F,A)... unless I'm missing something. (lol)

 

 

...my brain hurts. 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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Gordon Shumway said
Whereas Sakura Sakura uses the in scale.

  

😁

If you say so..Ive no idea about that.

@elcbk Its an F chord with C in bass.. 

what do you mean by I64

 

and your fingerings for the chord chart look amazing!   glad i dont have to "fret" over those...lol

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

🤔...  I'm still missing something.   Hope you can see where I'm going sideways.  I really want to be able to go on, but not until I get this straight. 

 

I64 is what's written under the staff (as the 1st chord) - above the staff, in the video, is F/C (at 00:02:30) - I couldn't tell if he was saying he wanted C to be the Root or not, but I listened more closely - I kinda think, he does.   

So, wouldn't it have to be a 2nd inversion of the F chord (F,A,C) , to have I (root) C, but then the 4th is F and the 6th is A - C,F,A (I,4th,6th) ...which would also mean the C is the lowest pitch. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/d4/29/d7d429894225f32b0d693827225a0cdc.gif

BUT that is NOT I64. 

If I64 is C,A,F - that's not making sense to me. 

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ABitRusty
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May 25, 2022 - 6:03 pm
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Im used to and havent needed to know past notating chords other than the F/C method.  It seems to me that your studies have given you enough to recognize some technical issues there so I dont think you should be worried or concerned...be happy!!  hey, youre soaking up a ton of material...more than I ever have done.   

I think someone like Jim who has played piano for a long time or anyone thats really studied piano would be a bigger help here.  if its guitar related too is past where i ever got.  which isnt difficult but what ive picked up has been put to use for the most part.  studied what I needed to know to get by.

  But I see where you are coming from with the video, Im just not sure its something Id spend alot of time trying to get.   Id probably go down the path of studying chord inversions, slash chords on a video specific.

I have to say I learned something 😄  never have seen I64 listed for anything.   its always been F/C. or C/E.  something like that where you are using another chord tone in the bass.

I went back and searched edlys and my Alfred complete jazz guitar ( that i havent used in a few years btw) book and didnt find a thing.   I could google but that would be cheesy...rofl..

Let me know what you figure out.. interesting!  

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JohnG
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Google - 

V64 = Passing 64
IV64 = Auxiliary (Neighbor) 64
I64 = Cadential 64 (V64--53)

I64 - sol do mi do sol - 5 1 3 1 5

http://robertkelleyphd.com/solfege.htm

The old curmudgeon!

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ABitRusty
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well there you go! 😀  

@JohnG can get away with it..  i didnt want google to save me after trying.  i threw myself on the mercy of those that knew those terms all along.. facepalm.  to be honest i didnt even see I64 and only the F/C.  i was like what the heck is an I64... i drive on I65 from time to time.  had a commodore 64 in the day.  but not heard an I64 chord. 😅 

alright...enough of that..  

carry on!

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ELCBK
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FINALLY, with fresh ears, I listened (again) to what he said near the end of the video.  The narrator definitely mentions that the 1st chord, the F/C, I64 is a 2nd Inversion.

@JohnG -

THANK YOU!  ...broke me out of my tunnel vision & pointed me in the right direction!   

@ABitRusty - 

THANK YOU! ...kept me on it & helped me stay focused on the F/C, with the C in the Bass, significance!  

You both convinced me to search googly again & guess I must've used the magic words this time, found enough info (other than for guitars) to help me pull everything you gave me, together.  I'll link some sources, but I was obviously reading way too much into everything! 

F/C and I64 - BOTH show this is a 2nd Inversion Chord - TWO different ways of  describing it. 

F/C is supposed to help easily identify the chord -  "F Chord with C in the Bass" (like Greg said 🥰).  The Chord is (C,F,A,C)

F/C Piano Chord Chart - 8notes

I64 tells it's a 2nd Inversion Triad of the Root, or tonic (F) - which is (C,F,A), but Six-Four Chords have special rules, making it (C,F,A,C)!  This term is more a description about this chord's FUNCTION

(like JohnG said 🥰)

There are two specific doubling and voice leading rules for these six-four chords that you should always keep in mind: 

  • Doubling - the fifth is always doubled 
  • Voice leading - in general,six-four chords are approached and resolved by stepwise movement

There are three types that behave like non-chord tones – the passing 6/4, the pedal or neighboring 6/4, and the cadential 6/4 – as well as the simple use of an arpeggiated 6/4...

The type of Six-Four Chord this particular one is - is MORE than I care to think about (right now), but there's a better description & more about each kind, here: 

Six-four Chords - Music Theory Teacher

For anyone who doesn't know what a Chord Inversion is, this is the rotation for the F Chord: 

  1. The F Chord = F,A,C 
  2. The 1st Inversion = A,C,F 
  3. The 2nd Inversion = C,F,A 

The Chord Progression used for the tune in the Japanese Yo Scale video is: 

I64-vi-IV-V-I64-vi-IV-I64

F/C (C,F,A,C)-Dm (D,F,A)-Bb (Bb,D,F)-C (C,E,G)-F/C (C,F,A,C)-Dm (D,F,A)-Bb (Bb,D,F)-F/C (C,F,A,C)

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ELCBK
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Now that's over, while scouting around today, I found this REALLY COOL Circle of 5ths CHORD CHART! 

Don't think I've really gotten around to mentioning that Chord Progressions follow the Circle of 5ths!  

There's a ton of info on this chart you can print. 

 

Chord-Chart.jpgImage Enlarger

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Gordon Shumway
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ELCBK said

Don't think I've really gotten around to mentioning that Chord Progressions follow the Circle of 5ths!     

We kind of both did on page 1!

Andrew

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ABitRusty
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This video is a great way to piece together most of whats talked about so far.   A kind of real world walk through along with a section that discusses the orchestration of this song.  Sorta gives an example for how a string section could play a chord. 

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