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Dark vs. Bright Tone
How Would You Describe a Dark vs. Bright Violin Tone?
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Fiddlerman
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March 11, 2019 - 9:15 am
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LOL. That is actually a viola joke. ROFL

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Mouse
March 11, 2019 - 9:17 am
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Hey, @Fiddlerman, I know when my viola is out of tune! I should leave it untuned, maybe my intonation would then be correct. banana

                  Learn Violin and Fiddle

                   on

                         Fiddlerman's Fiddle Talk Forum

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BillyG
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March 11, 2019 - 9:32 am
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Really interesting

My own take comes from the analyses (mathematical and measured) of the sound, and a physical understanding of it's production.  I agree with @Fiddlerman and @AndrewH and @Gordon Shumway  - well - OK I agree with everyone....  it's such a subjective subject (and indeed terminology)

The produced sound comes, in the first instance, from the "grip-and-slip" of the bow-hair and rosin, the bow speed and pressure, and the "engagement" of the rosined hair to the strings.   You end up with a sort of saw-tooth ( not triangular ) waveform when you look at the audio waveform. Now, some strings, and bows, and hair, and rosin, and instrument resonances and deadening-effects (from mass of the chin and shoulder rests, and physical holding, and etc.....) will ALL affect the sound production, and take the produced waveform away from the mathematically ideal sawtooth shape.

So, in playing, this "sawtooth waveform" I mention is not a "perfect" sawtooth wave - like /| where the '/' is the grip and the '|' is the slip - it is not perfect in real life ( I mean, the ideal "slip" is instantaneous - and of course it is not - because of the inertia of the strings - nor is the / ( the leading slope ) a perfect straight line as it is being accelerated as it catches the the bow-hair.

When you take a step further, and look at the actual audio spectrum (as distinct from the waveform) - for a sawtooth waveform - it will, for a "perfect" (mathematical - but real-life impossible) sawtooth waveform - have all harmonics of the fundamental frequency, in decreasing amplitude, going on forever.

However, in real-life situations, there are going to be effects due to the inertia of the string, the loss of energy by both projection of the sound into the air from the moving (vibrating) string, absorption by the bridge and body and so on, and the "mathematically ideal" waveform spectrum is NOT what you'll see from the analyses of a violin tone.  But - it is close - you can clearly see it if you just take a few minutes to record an open string (or stopped, doesn't matter) using Audacity, then look at its spectrum - yup - all harmonics are there, 1st (the fundamental - say 440 for an open A), the second (880) the third and so on... decreasing in amplitude up to around the 10th or 12th harmonic

Now - yes - I am not ignoring the instrument itself - like how "dead" or "lively" it is - yes, indeed, these characteristics all come into the equation - but - in general - as an overall description of what sounds "dark" or "bright" to me (and, well, both are good in their own place - and - for me - well - that's fine - and to some extent could be changed on a specific instrument by the choice of strings) comes down to the relative presence of the higher harmonics.  A "seriously bright" instrument and strings might be somewhat "edgy" for me - not overly pleasant to listen to, or indeed play (unless you are a David Garrett with a feel and touch that accommodates the instrument).  A "super dark" instrument and strings can sometimes sound somewhat "labored" in playing (unless, once again, you have the technique) - like where the strings just DONT RESPOND as rapidly as you want - (so, go on, fit steels LOL) but again - the tonal quality (of a dark instrument) can be quite magnificent for certain pieces.

But, that's just my personal take on this whole scenario of bright and dark ( and other associated terms, like "lively", "dull", "wooden", "shrill" and so on )

It's how I see it, and I know, many players have asked me "so just exactly what has math to do with music?"  Personally, I think it has everything to do with music - and I'm not saying players should know this, in the same way, as a driver, you don't need to know how your engine management system and petrol injection systems work.   

It's just the way I see it, right or wrong, doesn't matter either way - just wanted to throw in my tuppence-worth !  :)   so you'll all notice how I have gracefully side-stepped @FortyNothing 's original post by not really giving an answer !!!

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Irv
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March 11, 2019 - 9:56 am
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@BillyG and others.  A case in point to advance your discussion.  If you look (and more importantly, hear) the comparison of the Strad and German Fiddle in the “Stradivarius verses a German fiddle sound” thread under “the violin” topic area, it was immediately clear to me that the Strad was generating a lot more overtones than the German fiddle, both below and above the pitch.  I personally love that type of sound.

None of my violins produce anything close to the Strad in that regard, but I recently acquired an inexpensive Tertis viola copy that is darn close.  Open strings make the hair on the back of your head stand up.  

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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ABitRusty
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March 11, 2019 - 10:06 am
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My fiddle always sounds too Greg. yellcan't seem to bring out the Burke in it.  Even a touch of Hayes or Bain would be nice.  Strings haven't helped.  tongue

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
March 11, 2019 - 10:11 am
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Interesting - and I can believe it - I'll check it out @Irv - TY !

( Yes, the perceived "overtone both below and.." is interesting as well - I'm believe some folks perceive a "sub-harmonic" that may not "really be there" - I'm struggling with this one - because I do, and can, occasionally "hear" (or better said, perceive) perhaps a G2 (where no such frequency is physically present, even on a solo vln.... 

I'm working on properly understanding this phenomenon, but I suspect I largely get-it....)

Thanks Irv thumbs-up

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Gordon Shumway
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March 11, 2019 - 10:19 am
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If you want maths, there are also the FM sidebands caused by the vibrato. I can imagine different violins conveying these more or less readily.

BillyG said
I believe some folks perceive a "sub-harmonic" that may not "really be there" - I'm struggling with this one - because I do, and can, occasionally "hear" (or better said, perceive) perhaps a G2 (where no such frequency is physically present, even on a solo vln.... 

I'm not sure where this idea comes from. I know that it is said that no-one can hear a piano's lowest note's fundamental - they construct it from the overtones that they hear. But that isn't the same thing as hearing a note and an octave below it.

If you say you hear G2 when you play G3, I won't gainsay that.

If there were a mathematical explanation, it might involve constructing G2 from G2's overtones, which might involve the open D string, so you could perform the experiment of playing G with and without the D string muted to see if it makes a difference.

I wonder if (lol) you ever suffer from low-frequency tinnitus (I do - it's caused by wax stuck to my right eardrum)?

Andrew

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BillyG
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March 11, 2019 - 10:27 am
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Oh, indeed @Gordon Shumway - that's true.

They will also be present (in much lower order of course with non-vibrato) on even a single fingered note as the finger-pad depresses the string and as the string tension (marginally) increases - it REALLY IS a dynamic situation - on every single note you play !

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Gordon Shumway
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BillyG said
Oh, indeed @Gordon Shumway - that's true.

Just finished adding stuff, so you'll need to re-read. Sorry.

Andrew

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BillyG
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March 11, 2019 - 10:42 am
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Gordon Shumway said
If you want maths, there are also the FM sidebands caused by the vibrato. I can imagine different violins conveying these more or less readily.

BillyG said
I believe some folks perceive a "sub-harmonic" that may not "really be there" - I'm struggling with this one - because I do, and can, occasionally "hear" (or better said, perceive) perhaps a G2 (where no such frequency is physically present, even on a solo vln.... 

I'm not sure where this idea comes from. I know that it is said that no-one can hear a piano's lowest note's fundamental - they construct it from the overtones that they hear. But that isn't the same thing as hearing a note and an octave below it.

If you say you hear G2 when you play G3, I won't gainsay that.

If there were a mathematical explanation, it might involve constructing G2 from G2's overtones, which might involve the open D string, so you could perform the experiment of playing G with and without the D string muted to see if it makes a difference.

I wonder if (lol) you ever suffer from low-frequency tinnitus?  

:) No - I don't hear it when I play so experimentation on the instrument wouldn't help.   I "hear"  (better said "perceive") it when listening to some things.....  it (the perception of a sub-harmonic) is not always there...   it is quite likely a psycho/physio - logical thing - it may be due to the localized acoustics (room reverb, spatial audio, localized sound on headphones), and it may be - and probably IS -  "what I want to hear" (perceive) more than anything - of course I'm not saying it is "real" - quite evidently - it's some kind of "internal to me" thing.   Just wondered if others experienced this !!!  ( OK, I'm on my own here with this one !  LOL )

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Irv
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My mother had a Boesendorfer grand piano which had 96 keys (up from the conventional 88).  The excess were on the bass side, and were added for the lower harmonics.  Same effect on my back hair.  

Back in the 1970s, I attended a practice of a performance of Saint Saens 3rd Symphony in an auditorium which lacked an organ.  So they brought in a electronic organ with a lot of speakers.  Lowest stop was 12 hertz.  That frequency caused a resonance in my chest cavity.  And it also caused the failure of the plaster ceiling.  They had to close the hall to renovate the ceiling.  Good times.

There is a classical deaf percussionist that appears on stage in bare feet to sense the vibration of the orchestra.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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BillyG
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March 11, 2019 - 11:29 am
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Hahaha LF tinnitus !  Yah never know, could be - just as good an explanation as any !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
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March 11, 2019 - 11:49 am
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Even more ( OK, this was/is specific to mentioning G2 ) -

G2 is not far away from 100Hz.   In the UK our mains frequency is 50Hz.   You ( well I, and most folks ) can easily hear a 50 Hz mains hum - ( 100Hz in USA ?  not sure... )

And - (well while not hearing it at the same time) the G2 is close enough to 100Hz, which for me here, is an octave up from the "ingrained 50Hz UK hummmm" we never escape from, for me to "imagine" it at half of that ( because the 50Hz is "always there, somewhere in the background" - and even in the mind if not actually an audible hum)  

OK, just kidding - my reference to hearing G2 when a G3 was played in my earlier post was just a "for example" - I experience a similar thing on many of the lower frequency home notes / key tonics...   I should perhaps stop listening to so much solo cello music...  (it's evidently destroying my aural perception) dunno

bunny_pole_dancer

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starise
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Another remark I have heard from a few experienced players is that a beginner doesn't know enough to make an educated selection. IOW we don't know what we don't know.

After some time and a handful of violins I would now say that I agree with that statement. Initially I thought it sounded condescending. I mean we have ears on the sides of our head just like they do. It goes a little deeper than that though. As a beginner, I didn't know anything about response or clarity. I was only thinking in terms of sound quality or sound personality. The bow is at least as important too. I compare it to playing a electric guitar with dirty pickups. Guitarists add distortion to their sound. If you don't get that just right you'll end up with a muddy mess. You want some bite and just the right amount of distortion. In violin terms, some violins aren't as responsive to our input nor are they all clear in tone. In the beginning of our experience we aren't playing fast material. Usually it's slow pulls across the strings. We are also mainly on the A and E strings in the very beginning. When you start to get faster material that's when you notice the clarity or lack of it.

In some fiddle styles maybe a little loss of definition is ok. What I don't want are "woofy" notes and a loss of definition between notes. Unfortunately all of my violins to date seem to exhibit a loss of some definition in the G and D strings, even playing closer to the bridge and using more bow closer to the frog. This seems to be a fairly common trait of many violins since the body cavity seems to fight some frequency responses in those ranges. I like  warmer richer sound as opposed to a more cutting treble. Yet I don't want "warm" in the sense that there's no definition. I think we can have both. I can still get the sounds out of the violins I have, I just have to work harder to get them and settle for a little less than I wanted. The higher end instruments, especially the custom made ones don't require as much effort to get the sounds and they almost always have better definition unless the buyer requested something else. I'll never be buying one of those unless I hit the lottery, so I learn to work around that small handicap or try to.

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