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(2 votes) 
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cdennyb said
That's the short and sweet of it.
Thanks for the overview and for the links.
To get specific about my fiddle, it looks like I could do the job using just a reamer and the pre-shaped stewmac pegs you indicated, carbon paper and maybe sandpaper. Those pegs already have a 30:1 taper, which is great. But they come in just one size, and I find that I would have to enlarge my peg holes by up to 0.060", the small holes ending up at about 0.307" and the large ones ending up at about 0.335". The pegbox walls are not real thick---about 0.165".
If you were doing a job like this in your shop, would you be inclined to make the pegs thinner or make the holes bigger?
cdennyb said
Stewart McDonald has ebony pegs that have been reported to have the correct taper and require no further trimming, so they would be as you describe.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tu.....g_Peg.html
You will notice that it says final fitting is required. These pegs are like all pegs. They are sold very over-sized and then you shave them down to fit. I have not found new pegs that don't already have the correct taper, they are just big.
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Thanks for that great link and article on fitting pegs Dennis.
And thanks for your great input Kevin. That sounds like a perfect way to repair those messed up peg holes.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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RosinedUp said
cdennyb said
That's the short and sweet of it.Thanks for the overview and for the links.
To get specific about my fiddle, it looks like I could do the job using just a reamer and the pre-shaped stewmac pegs you indicated, carbon paper and maybe sandpaper. Those pegs already have a 30:1 taper, which is great. But they come in just one size, and I find that I would have to enlarge my peg holes by up to 0.060", the small holes ending up at about 0.307" and the large ones ending up at about 0.335". The pegbox walls are not real thick---about 0.165".
If you were doing a job like this in your shop, would you be inclined to make the pegs thinner or make the holes bigger?
We would never make the holes bigger unless they needed it. A slight shave with the reamer to confirm the taper and contact area is all that's done initially. All the work goes into the pegs. The reason is that the more wood around the hole you can keep the better...makes the hole stronger if that makes sense and besides, you as a player will push in on the peg as you tune it to "lock" it in place, this pushing could cause a crack to develop if you pushed too hard on an enlarged oversized hole... If you enlarge the hole, you can't put more wood back easily but if you cut too much off a peg, pegs are cheap.
Make sense?
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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cdennyb said
We would never make the holes bigger unless they needed it. A slight shave with the reamer to confirm the taper and contact area is all that's done initially. All the work goes into the pegs. The reason is that the more wood around the hole you can keep the better...makes the hole stronger if that makes sense and besides, you as a player will push in on the peg as you tune it to "lock" it in place, this pushing could cause a crack to develop if you pushed too hard on an enlarged oversized hole... If you enlarge the hole, you can't put more wood back easily but if you cut too much off a peg, pegs are cheap.Make sense?
Makes perfect sense, and it was what I hoped you would say. Now if only people could buy precisely-tapered pegs in various diameters, they could fit pegs with just a reamer.
I expect that when a peg shaper gets to where it has a taper that differs from that of the reamer, probably it is not so easy to adjust the shaper. I would think that a factory could make pegs much more precisely (and cheaper) so that they would fit perfectly after at most a slight touching up of the holes. To cover most cases, not every case, you would just keep ten or twenty sizes of pegs on hand. By trial and error you would find the sizes that fit the holes. You wouldn't even need to trim or finish the ends---that would already be done at the factory.
Maybe you can see that I have considerable confidence in my ability to change the way professional luthiers have been doing things for two or three hundred years.
Would it work?
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Okay, here is a model for direct marketing of reamers and pre-shaped tuning pegs.
You sell a reamer having the standard 30:1 taper, along with an advertisement and special instructions for reaming and ordering pegs to fit the holes. But whoever buys the reamer can ignore that and shape his own pegs if so inclined.
The instructions would show how to use the reamer as a gauge: after shaving the holes minimally, the reamer is crammed into the hole while turning it backwards. Then the length of reamer sticking out of the hole is measured, and a table is consulted, translating to what size peg is needed for that hole. You sell the precisely pre-shaped pegs for say twice as much as ordinary pegs.
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I think you could be on to something, but in the end, I suppose the final result is going to need the end trimmed anyway. I suppose you could order a variey of different pegs to suit the hole you might have.
I think that's an awesome idea. Wonder how many pegs a company would have to stock to fill everything from a 1/16 violin to a 4/4 violin? Wonder if the cost would end up at double or more?
You know, it only takes a few turns of the peg in the trimmer to get it cut to the proper diameter and taper. The shaper tool is adjustable so the first time it's used you have to "calibrate" it to cut the right taper. Setting the angle of the blade is all that's required.
We have a small brass 'peg' to set in the tool and adjustt he blade down onto as you tighten the holding screws. If I think about it I'll take a pic next time I'm over there and have them out.
All good ideas. Maybe you have found a new business venture, and maybe fiddlerman could sell them at his shop as well...although I think he wants to stay away from tools and accessories like reamers and shavers. LOL
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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cdennyb said
...
I suppose the final result is going to need the end trimmed anyway.
...
I think that's an awesome idea. Wonder how many pegs a company would have to stock to fill everything from a 1/16 violin to a 4/4 violin? Wonder if the cost would end up at double or more?
...
We have a small brass 'peg' to set in the tool and adjustt he blade down onto as you tighten the holding screws. If I think about it I'll take a pic next time I'm over there and have them out.
...
Okay, thanks---now I know that it is easy to adjust the peg shaper.
I was only thinking of 4/4 size. I forgot that a shop has to deal with all sizes.
Putting some actual numbers to the question of whether the ends would need to be trimmed, I find that you are right about that. More importantly, with fixed sizes of pegs, I think there would necessarily be somewhat large variations in the length of "crank" or "knob" end of the peg. I guess now I am a little impressed with the precision needed to size the pegs and the holes. It seems that you have to get within 1/10 mm (0.004") in order to keep the peg length within 3 mm.
I was looking at prices for peg jobs and seeing numbers like $100 and $200, which is why I got interested in the problem.
How much does your shop charge for a peg job?
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If the old man does the peg fitting from scratch, meaning new pegs, a peg box that hasn't been messed up before and needs bushings installed, and only needs the pegs trimmed or shaved and the holes trued, $85.
If he needs to rebush the holes it's an additional $15 per hole needing the work on top of the $85 base cost.
The prices seem to be right in line with your examples.
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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