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Differences in Violin Makes
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ABitRusty
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So Im confused on all the different makes and styles of violins available now.  For instance, there is a Lord Wilton, a Cannone, the Red violin (cant remember the exact name) and so forth.. I understand whats out there are copies of famous violins but were measurements different on each?  Different wood tops and or backs, different bracing?  In the guitar world for instances as you move up through say Taylors line of guitars each series is made with certain tops and backs so once you get it they usually dont change.  Is there a cheat sheet to wade through and understand the differences other than this one has this name because it looks like such and such famous violin?  Or did current builders actually take measurements or use old plans from the famous luthiers to build current production violins?  Im looking to upgrade. In fact Im on the list for a demo video with fiddlerman.  In the end it probably doesnt matter Im just curious about the tech spec sorta thing if there is such a thing.  Probably secret sauce though :)   But any insight would be appreciated.

Happy Fiddling!

Greg

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AndrewH
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With the famous violins, the internal structure is identical, but the measurements are slightly different and the shapes of the tops and backs vary a little. Here's an article that mentions the evolution in the shapes of Stradivari's own violins over time.

http://darntonhersh.com/a-viol.....tradivari/

With modern-day copies at the workshop level or higher, I would assume luthiers copy the dimensions and shapes. But that may not always be true with factory instruments; many factories may use a standard pattern and simply varnish the violins differently to match the appearance of the famous violin being copied.

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Gordon Shumway
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It's a nice idea but I've never seriously thought about buying one, as you'd have to have all dimensions the same as the original, including all of the wood thickness profiling. So all internal and external dimensions. Some kind of holographic laser measuring device would be nice. But then a luthier would have too little to do, as by then some kind of CNC machine would carve all the wood. Maybe that happens already, no idea, just musing. And of course you'd need to know Stradivari's secret varnish formula. I NEED MORE ANCHOVY OIL!devil-violin

Andrew

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Fiddlerman
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February 13, 2019 - 10:33 am
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So when these makers made their violins back in the day, they were made by plate tuning and feeling. They did not try to create each and every violin exactly the same. Some makers were more consistent.
The nicknames are not really that important IMO. The maker, wood selection and quality are way more important. Obviously one can not deviate in design and graduation too much without affecting sound quality but these instruments are close in both graduation and dimensions anyway.
The nicknames are only relevant because those violins are so successful that they were purchased and played by great players.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
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February 13, 2019 - 10:58 am
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GregW said
..... In the guitar world for instances as you move up through say Taylors line of guitars each series is made with certain tops and backs so once you get it they usually dont change. .....

Happy Fiddling!

Greg  

ROFL - so sorry @ABitRusty - I'm afraid the mere mention of Taylor Guitars brings this back to mind, every time.... ( I own one ) -

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Irv
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This topic was discussed at length under the “violin metrics” thread.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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ABitRusty
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BillyG..humor appreciated!  Makes day enjoyable.  Im suspecting that singer didnt like taylor anyway ;)

Gotcha Irv I will search through those!

Andrew I read the article.  Interesting to me on the history involved. But its given me another internet rabbitt hole to venture into.  Heading there after this...lol

Still not quite understanding all the branding and how one vs another gets a name and the other doesnt.  Ill read through more of the forum postings and see whats there.  Its all just curiosity stuff anyway.  :)

Thanks all,

Greg

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Gordon Shumway
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Fiddlerman said
when these makers made their violins back in the day, they were made by plate tuning and feeling. They did not try to create each and every violin exactly the same.  

Yes, I think this is the most salient point.

Andrew

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AndrewH
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My impression (and I may be wrong) is that Strad copies commonly replicate the external dimensions only, not the plate thicknesses, because every piece of wood is necessarily different.

As for Stradivari's "secret"... I'm increasingly in the camp of Joseph Nagyvary, who concludes that the sound of old Italian violins was merely a result of the way lumber was typically transported at the time: logs were tied into rafts and floated down rivers, spent a lot of time in water, and had minerals deposited in the wood. Nagyvary has had impressive results with wood salvaged from the bottom of Lake Michigan. His best violins sound remarkably like Guarneris -- they're even indistinguishable with FFT analysis.

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ABitRusty
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Gordon Shumway said

Yes, I think this is the most salient point.  

Thanks Gordon and fiddlerman...I didnt pay close enough attention to the plate tuning statement and should have.  Glad you posted that Gordon.  Thats where the specs answer will be Im suspecting along with some of the history that Andrew pointed out.  Interesting stuff to me how all these instruments came to be.

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bocaholly
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AndrewH said
My impression (and I may be wrong) is that Strad copies commonly replicate the external dimensions only, not the plate thicknesses, because every piece of wood is necessarily different.

As for Stradivari's "secret"... I'm increasingly in the camp of Joseph Nagyvary, who concludes that the sound of old Italian violins was merely a result of the way lumber was typically transported at the time: logs were tied into rafts and floated down rivers, spent a lot of time in water, and had minerals deposited in the wood. Nagyvary has had impressive results with wood salvaged from the bottom of Lake Michigan. His best violins sound remarkably like Guarneris -- they're even indistinguishable with FFT analysis.  

aQAAAPZAADAcW1tb2QAAAAAAAAGEAAAoC4AAAAA0OXuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=  I'm on my way with some epson salts. 

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Irv
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Perhaps the old wood was also infected with fungus.  Experiments were made about ten years ago with infecting spruce slabs with Physisporinus vitreus.  After several months of treatment, the gas biocide eto (commonly used on hospital linens) was used to fumigate the wood.  Violins made from the wood performed very well.  The process was commercialized under the trade name Mycowood.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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Gordon Shumway
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Irv said
Perhaps the old wood was also infected with fungus.  Experiments were made about ten years ago with infecting spruce slabs with Physisporinus vitreus.  After several months of treatment, the gas biocide eto (commonly used on hospital linens) was used to fumigate the wood.  Violins made from the wood performed very well.  The process was commercialized under the trade name Mycowood.  

Just when you thought you'd conquered toxic mould!

It's a nice theory, but maybe it's a send the cat to eat the rat, send the dog to eat the cat situation. I'm thinking, what if your furniture gets infected. And will you need a face-mask?

AndrewH said
Joseph Nagyvary, who concludes that the sound of old Italian violins was merely a result of the way lumber was typically transported at the time: logs were tied into rafts and floated down rivers, spent a lot of time in water, and had minerals deposited in the wood. Nagyvary has had impressive results with wood salvaged from the bottom of Lake Michigan. His best violins sound remarkably like Guarneris -- they're even indistinguishable with FFT analysis.  

I assume there's more to his first-hand explanation than "minerals were deposited". I'd hope to see a chemist's analysis. What I mean is, wood is already full of "minerals", and a long soak in running fresh water will just swell the wood with distilled water by osmosis. The movement of mineral molecules too from the water into the wood is a different process and beyond my knowledge, but they'd have to be ones that were more plentiful in the water than those already in the wood, wouldn't they?

How old was the wood salvaged from the bottom of lake Michigan? Obviously here the mud will be more mineral rich than the streams in the Alps. Perhaps in the alps and Italy the geology is mostly limestone, leading to very hard water.

Earlier I was going to respond that it felt to me that there were a lot of good luthiers in Canada (if you include guitars), where presumably also you get good cheap spruce, but I didn't get around to it, and also I think someone else commented somewhere else that Canada had very few luthiers using some criteria.

Andrew

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DennisS
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Gordon Shumway said

Earlier I was going to respond that it felt to me that there were a lot of good luthiers in Canada (if you include guitars), where presumably also you get good cheap spruce, but I didn't get around to it, and also I think someone else commented somewhere else that Canada had very few luthiers using some criteria.  

Jonathan Cooper (jcooperviolinmaker.com), a violin maker of some note in Portland, Maine, uses local (Maine-sourced) maple for his violins, but interestingly still imports spruce for the tops from Europe in spite of lots of spruce available locally.  

Why certain types of wood produce pleasing resonances is a complex issue (perhaps like grapes in winemaking).  We select for wood from sources that have proven, over time, to yleld a pleasing end result.  Reproducing the effect with other woods without undesirable side effects (like destroying the structural integrity of the wood, or infecting one's furniture) is tricky business.

Dennis

If I don't have time for a short post, I'll write a long post - (adapted from Mark Twain)

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ABitRusty
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I wonder if anyone has tried koa as a top and or indian rosewood for back and sides?  Where does Koa fall in relation to spruce?  Seems like it would sound more chimey and really make high notes even more shrill.  Based on what Ive heard out of guitars. 

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Gordon Shumway
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There are many different attitudes to koa. Some say it is related to acacia, but I'm not so sure of that, going by botanical classification. Some say that old koa was good, hard and resonant, but young koa isn't, and on Hawaii all the old koa has been used up and now it is all young and it is becoming rare too. And still others say the only reason the Hawaiians used koa in the first place was because it was their local tree - it was all they had.

Andrew

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ABitRusty
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Gordon Shumway said
There are many different attitudes to koa. Some say it is related to acacia, but I'm not so sure of that, going by botanical classification. Some say that old koa was good, hard and resonant, but young koa isn't, and on Hawaii all the old koa has been used up and now it is all young and it is becoming rare too. And still others say the only reason the Hawaiians used koa in the first place was because it was their local tree - it was all they had.  

That seems logical.

Watched the youtube guy that made the home depot violin videos.  He had a nice looking cedar and walnut violin.  Another was oak and spruce.  I liked the oak and spruce sound better.   The cedar was a prettier violin though, I thought.

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AndrewH
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Gordon Shumway said

Irv said
Perhaps the old wood was also infected with fungus.  Experiments were made about ten years ago with infecting spruce slabs with Physisporinus vitreus.  After several months of treatment, the gas biocide eto (commonly used on hospital linens) was used to fumigate the wood.  Violins made from the wood performed very well.  The process was commercialized under the trade name Mycowood.  

Just when you thought you'd conquered toxic mould!

It's a nice theory, but maybe it's a send the cat to eat the rat, send the dog to eat the cat situation. I'm thinking, what if your furniture gets infected. And will you need a face-mask?

AndrewH said
Joseph Nagyvary, who concludes that the sound of old Italian violins was merely a result of the way lumber was typically transported at the time: logs were tied into rafts and floated down rivers, spent a lot of time in water, and had minerals deposited in the wood. Nagyvary has had impressive results with wood salvaged from the bottom of Lake Michigan. His best violins sound remarkably like Guarneris -- they're even indistinguishable with FFT analysis.  

I assume there's more to his first-hand explanation than "minerals were deposited". I'd hope to see a chemist's analysis. What I mean is, wood is already full of "minerals", and a long soak in running fresh water will just swell the wood with distilled water by osmosis. The movement of mineral molecules too from the water into the wood is a different process and beyond my knowledge, but they'd have to be ones that were more plentiful in the water than those already in the wood, wouldn't they?

How old was the wood salvaged from the bottom of lake Michigan? Obviously here the mud will be more mineral rich than the streams in the Alps. Perhaps in the alps and Italy the geology is mostly limestone, leading to very hard water.

Earlier I was going to respond that it felt to me that there were a lot of good luthiers in Canada (if you include guitars), where presumably also you get good cheap spruce, but I didn't get around to it, and also I think someone else commented somewhere else that Canada had very few luthiers using some criteria.  

I don't know the answer to your questions about the chemistry, because I haven't seen the chemical analysis. I assume the mineral content of the water would be different from the wood. I also understand that the water in most of Italy is extremely hard. I've seen tourist guidebooks warn readers about it.

The wood from the bottom of Lake Michigan varies in age, with most of it between 100 and 200 years old.

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They should go to Lake Superior and get part of The Edmond Fitzgerald. Maybe make a violin for Gordon Lightfoot. The Edmond Fitzgerald fascinates me. Okay, not don’t anyone change this interesting thread to the topic of the Edmond Fitzgeral or Gordin Lightfoot.

Seriously, this is neat reading. I remember watching a show about some people logging in the swamps of Louisiana, maybe? They were getting these huge fallen trees and chunks of trees from the swamps. They were, supposedly getting good money for them. Most were completely submerged. My question is, does it have to be from the bottom of really cold water, Great Lakes in the Winter or longer depending how far north, or can it be the warmer Louisiana swamp waters? Most had  been submerged a long time.

                  Learn Violin and Fiddle

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steveduf
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Whether in the swamps of Louisiana or Lake Michigan the salvaged wood is old growth wood.  Heartwood pines and cypress from the south was closer grained.  Same with the “sinkers” in Lake Michigan.  After the virgin forests were logged, all new growth forests don’t have the same close grained wood.  The same has happened with the pernambuco forests and trees.  The sinker logs are preserved by lack of oxygen causing decomposition.  I have seen and used “sinker” log wood in Michigan and there definitely is a difference.   Now... do the minerals in the waters help?  No idea

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