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Just Getting it Off My Chest - About Participation
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (14 votes) 
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ELCBK
USA
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December 27, 2021 - 11:22 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 3499
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Just want to mention something that's been troubling me. 

I try to make an extra effort to show how much I appreciate the recordings members share, because I know it's never easy.   

I learn sooo much, not only from my own recordings, but also from everyone else here! 

This forum is a wonderful archive and hope others can see it as such - a place where we can revisit and share our progress over time.  

Let's face it, the Violin, Viola and Cello are not instruments that can be mastered in a short period of time - it's so nice to feel we are all learning together. 

It saddens me that some members feel they have to remove their videos. 

I hope everyone realizes that we are ALL in the same boat... well maybe there's someone here with perfect pitch, but I doubt it!  

 

https://cdn.slidesharecdn.com/ss_thumbnails/newyearwishes3-091214013455-phpapp01-thumbnail-4.jpg?cb=1260754534

This would be a typical occasion for my Brother to exclaim,

with a perfectly straight face, "I have perfect pitch!" - he'd be lying. (lol)

...if anyone has a problem with a lack of video storage,

help and free solutions are available. 

- Emily 

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Mouse
December 27, 2021 - 12:04 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 3621
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While the frustration is understandable, it must be understood that some members are not comfortable posting videos, or if they do, they are not comfortable leaving them up for long periods of time. That does not mean they do not wish to participate or appreciate the forum, or are not valued members. They are.

I remove mine after a while. I am just not comfortable leaving them up. I am not comfortable having a collection of my videos on YouTube, even if they are only shared via the link. Once posted in any forum, they are no longer private. I remove mine from YouTube, completely, after a while, it is my choice.

All members are free to share as much or as little as they are comfortable with for as long as they are comfortable. Watching someone else's video is not the only way to learn. Posting a video is not the only way to participate in this forum. 

This forum is open to everyone who is interested in bowed string instruments, whether you are comfortable and or have the ability to share videos or not. 

Your frustration is understood, but nobody is to be pressured to post videos on the forum, if they are not comfortable doing so, and they are not required to leave them up longer than they feel comfortable doing. People without the ability to post videos are also welcome. For those who do remove them or do not post videos, you are welcome to this forum and your input and participation in any way is very valuable.

The Bumblebee Flies!

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SharonC
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December 27, 2021 - 12:16 pm
Member Since: June 24, 2020
Forum Posts: 492
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Everyone is at a different place on their path to learning these instruments.  Comfort & confidence are a big part of the journey.  I came across the Forum back in 2013 when I was first starting playing—I didn’t join, nor did I visit very often.  I thought the Forum was good thing, but I didn’t feel it was right for me at the time—just where I was on my learning path.

There are many members who have joined when they just started playing—and that is great!  And some who’ve not only joined as soon as they started, but started posting videos from the get-go.  This is wonderful!  I don’t think joining later vs sooner, posting videos later vs sooner (or at all), etc., is right or wrong.  I believe in meeting people where they are.

There isn’t one video I’ve posted that I didn’t think I could make improvements on.  My playing is a hobby—it’s not competitive, and my playing doesn’t have to feed me (thank God).  I would hope everyone would see the greater good of having an archive as an educational tool, but if they are not comfortable keeping their videos posted, that’s their choice, and I respect it.

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
December 27, 2021 - 12:48 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3741
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100% on everyone's posts above.

Hmmmm, yup - it is NOT easy (on so many levels). Been involved in SO many discussions (in other places) about playing music in general - and - admittedly - most of these places/forums I am, and have been, on - are for polyphonic instruments (guitar, kbs in my case) - and there have been SO many arguments - well - call then "discussions" although they do tend to get heated (LOL) - about which instrument is more difficult to play....

Now, for me - hands down ( I play to some extent on all mentioned - and other instruments )  - it's the violin/fiddle - which we are talking about here.

A major issue is when soloing. On a guitar you have a ringing chord along with any finger-picking etc "adding to the sound " (and covering the occasional mis-fingered stop). Same goes for piano (from my point of view) - you got two hands and 10 fingers (most of us) - and even 3 on each hand and your coordination is working - it will sound pretty "full" and good, even with an occasionally "fluffed" fingering on one out of 6 "pretty much concurrently played" notes - of course it will sound OK to a general listener.

Now, consider a fiddler/violinist ( I hate to link the two as the same, but y'all know what I mean) - man - playing SOLO on a fiddle is a truly BRUTAL THING (compared to a solo piano or guitar etc) when you have only one note at a time to play (and no one other than yourself to blame for intonation issues on a fretless). Yeah, OK, two-note partial chords and even an occasional 3-note (say with sustained ringing on a low string) are possible, of course they are - but - that's not how everything can be played on a viddle.

Mess up a single fingering - and the listener will be aware....

I really think that's why so many folks who want to learn "violin" / fiddle (especially newcomers to music in general) give up (or hesitate from sharing progress because they think they are sooooo bad) on their v/fiddle journey.

Trust me - I am not "embarrassed" by my earliest posts on my fiddle journey as shared here and more widely on YT - but truly - they were (from where I stand now) - well - not particularly good - but - point is - it was a history of the (my) journey and were "the best I COULD do back at the time".  I have no shame or embarrassment about that - it was all about the sharing of where I was, and more importantly, hoping for, and expecting, feedback - like "Try doing 'this' instead "and so on - it's how we all learn...)

I have no problem with that. None at all - and neither should anyone else in the same learning situation - unless they of course have aspirations to become "pro" players (i.e for a job, employment, paid etc) so - sure - THAT IS different - stick with your tutors, if that's your goal, sure - don't share your initial stumblings - because - they will ALWAYS be there to be found during your later, successful playing career!!!

That, for SURE is a different reason for folks not sharing progress - and I ***FULLY*** understand that. I only play as a hobbyist, for fun, and have never played (even in any of my earlier instrument playing days) played for money (other than charity).   Yes, recently (last few years on fiddle) I received unasked for but welcomed "contributions" in the form of tips from viewers on SteetJelly - but - equally - that (and more from my own pocket) has ALL gone back to other performers on SJ in the form of tips from me.

Yeah - so -  @the original poster and subsequent comments - for sure  we all have different reasons for "being here" and "how much we care to choose to contribute to the forum" - but - specifically @ELCBK - really - honestly - there should be no need for you personally to feel you have to specifically remove your own posts ( or edit comments ) - you wrote - 

It saddens me to have to edit or remove my replies because some members feel they have to remove their videos. 

I hope everyone realizes that we are ALL in the same boat... well maybe there's someone here with perfect pitch, but I doubt it!  

That *may* be the point Emily - but I don't believe we're all necessarily "in the same boat".  Many of us are engaging in the journey as a hobby - and an immensely involved and rewarding one at that - there will be others here (as evidenced by uptake on the group-project videos) that have never posted or shared their journey - and - well- that's fair enough as well.  Their choice, maybe early starters, with a specific goal to be an orchestral player etc.  So yeah - fine by me - but sure Emily - I too *completely understand* where you are coming from on your post.

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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stringy
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December 27, 2021 - 1:50 pm
Member Since: August 23, 2020
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When I posted my first video ever using the violin it wasnt on this forum, it was on maestronet, I got a lot of replies. One of the best was from a soloist who is well known, he told me , and I quote,'Intonation disaster, phrasing, disaster, timing terrible, ', but then said, all these things can be fixed, and took the time to send me a lot of personal messages on how to correct everything, one of the things he told me to do was learn to sing scales, which I did, and which isnt easy, he said this was how he was taught to get correct intonation, you have to hear the note, he told me never use tapes, use your ear which I did. I myself take onboard all criticism, it doesnt bother me, especially when I get excellent advice as the player I mention gave me. My own videos I have removed from this forum for reasons of my own.

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

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ELCBK
USA
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December 27, 2021 - 2:12 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
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Hey, Thanks everyone! 

🤣 ...there's no such thing as privacy, anymore.  Of course, as someone who has served in the Military, I learned this WAY before the internet existed - and pretty sure if you have a phone number, Bank account and an email address, your cover is blown. (lol) 

BUT, that's just my personal opinion - I never expect everyone to agree. 🙄

On the subject of members who don't participate at all - thinking many that turn out for GP's may follow the Fiddlershop on Facebook, but not this forum.  I'm also sure there are many seasoned players who feel there's nothing for them to learn here - that's understandable.  And, some people get so wrapped up in what they are doing, they don't have the time or willingness to share and help others.  I'm not concerned with any of them.

 

I just want to make sure no one, here, feels left out. 😊 

 

https://s.yimg.com/aah/pomegranate/b-kliban-catcalendar-2022-wall-calendar-17.jpg

- Emily

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
December 27, 2021 - 2:48 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3741
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Now, @stringy - that is exactly how I wish things would work.

None of us are perfect or know all there is to know in any specific subject - even those who (as you refer to in your case) kindly step in with critique and assistance will STILL have things to learn.  We all have.

I think it is awesome you got one-to-one help and assistance from a fellow "better player" - and kudos to him for taking the time and caring to share the information.  Awesome.

That is exactly what I have done throughout my career - I would happily speak and share intricate details on engineering projects we were working on in an effort to not only increase the understanding of others, but also to hear, to listen to, to take-on-board other opinions, and adapt my own understanding when necessary.  It is, as my forum signature suggests - "I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)  I don't do that on the forum here - I simply share "where I am" and any critique I give is simply based on how/what I feel - as a hobbyist/amateur player myself thinks about something someone has played for us.  As far as fiddle/violin playing goes, I have very little meaningful to assist others LOL.

Not everyone however is so altruistic as your mentor/friend on the forum you mentioned in their approach - sure - you'll find a lot of "takers" who read what's written, listen to what's being said, learn from it for free and, in their "silence" give nothing back, not even a quick "thank you".  But that's folks I guess  - and - what goes around.... well yeah, you know....

and personally @stringy you say 

My own videos I have removed from this forum for reasons of my own.

That sir, is entirely your choice, for your own reasons - I (and others) will miss your posts, but thank you for what you have shared in the past - much appreciated !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
December 27, 2021 - 2:51 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3741
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@ELCBK 

I just want to make sure no one, here, feels left out. 

Well said !  Absolutely!

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Mouse
December 27, 2021 - 3:03 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 3621
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I am not sure what the problem is. If people are not able or simply do not feel comfortable posting videos of themselves playing, that is their prerogative.

And, some people get so wrapped up in what they are doing, they don't have the time or willingness to share and help others. 

I, as a member - not an admin, really do not want guests who are thinking about joining  the forum, or current members who are hesitant to post, to feel like we expect them to post videos or anything else they do not feel comfortable with. This hesitancy is not members not having the time or willingness to share. Some of us are simply not comfortable posting videos. Being told it is because we are unwilling to help and share is not being understanding. I don't think this helps put people at ease, actually. Members have a right to share as little or as much as they are comfortable with or are able to do, as stated before.

Again, I understand your frustration, especially being someone who has no issues posting videos, Some of us do. That does not mean we have an unwillingness to share or help. Every member is an integral and important part of this forum, from I can see. Those who don't post videos are just as helpful and willing to help as those who do.

I posted videos before. I really was not comfortable with it. I don't do it anymore. I was forcing myself to. I really was not comfortable. I am removing videos from YouTube over time, as I have stated, but I am not posting videos any longer. Does that mean I have an unwillingness to share and help others? I don't think so.

The Bumblebee Flies!

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ELCBK
USA
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December 27, 2021 - 3:32 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
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@Mouse -

Sorry, there is NO problem and I'm not frustrated. 

I wasn't even aware you removed any of your videos. 

I already said this is MY OPINION.

It saddens me that some members feel they have to remove their videos.  

 

I just want to make sure no one, here, feels left out. 

 

I've edited my OP to be more clear.

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Mouse
December 27, 2021 - 3:38 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
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We have to remember that we all share and learn in our own comfort zones. When it comes to forums, those comfort zones can vary from the way people share when not online, also. We must be mindful of this.

There are quite a few videos posted in this forum. 

The Bumblebee Flies!

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ABitRusty
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December 27, 2021 - 4:26 pm
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its easier to post videos here because any regular forum member that would take the time to watch knows what is involved in getting a sound good or bad out of a bowed instrument.   And for the most part we are pretty much around same place in learning.. The descision to remove or leave up a video really isnt about people here or even privacy, although I would always want a video to stay in the context of the post it was placed in.   I dont have a problem with something being posted for a short while and then taken down or whatever.  I Totally understand that...  

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JohnG
Greater Chicagoland
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December 28, 2021 - 5:50 pm
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Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth in that I can understand some people not feeling comfortable about sharing any video or not willing to leave them posted. Not everyone is as thick skinned as this old curmudgeon. This forum is always supportive of videos, even in the Critique area (maybe too much so there). That being said, if someone was to lambast any of mine, I'd probably just say to myself, oh well, maybe THEY are having a bad day. I hear my mistakes, poor bowing, and sometimes even my poor intonation, and if others point that out, it's understandable.

I would prefer everyone to participate with videos or audio files and to leave them for posterity, but if not, I can understand their point of view.

The old curmudgeon!

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Mouse
December 28, 2021 - 6:23 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
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It isn’t being thick skinned or not, only. There are many reasons. My main reason is the comfort zone. Not really security, as much as comfort. I have never liked having my picture taken. There are very few photos of me growing up after I was old enough to dodge the camera. 😇 I do not feel comfortable at all. I have never liked doing anything in front of anyone. I tried to post videos. The longer they are up, the more uncomfortable I am, and I know they aren’t watched all that often, but for me, once is bad enough. I haven’t removed all of them and am just doing it periodically when I think one has been up long enough. But I do not know if I can get myself to post any more videos. I was going to. Every time I think to do it, I literally put my instrument away. It is too stressful.

For some, it is mainly a matter of security and what makes them comfortable along that line.

Many of the older posts have videos removed because when the earlier members left, they removed their videos. It may have been because they were just clearing their YouTube library or it may have been specifically to remove them from the forum after they were no longer going to visit.

There are many reasons and one reason is not more important than any other because it is important to that person. 

I truly admire those who have no issue with it. I truly admire those who can actually perform in front people. For me the Group Projects are as far as I go. That is a struggle, but one I am willing to work through. 

I love watching the videos that are posted and wish I could do more, but I can’t. 

That said, I am very thankful for this forum for the opportunity to try it. The members who were here when I first joined, may recall my issues trying to get over it. I am also very thankful and appreciative of the tremendous encouragement given by members who watched and replied. Anyone thinking to post a video, if you can, please do. It is really great to feel all of that encouragement. Unfortunately, for me, it doesn’t eliminate my fear of doing anything in front of a camera or audience, I guess that is what it is. I am less stressful coming here since I decided I can contribute in other ways and learn in other ways.

I have actually enjoyed this topic, even with its bumps. It has been very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks, @ELCBK .

The Bumblebee Flies!

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wtw
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December 29, 2021 - 6:06 am
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I always remove my videos from the forum after a few days. It has nothing to do with you people criticising, and all that. Not at all. It has more to do with not leaving videos or photos of myself potentially accessible to the whole (english-speaking) internet. Even if of course the whole english-speaking world doesn't come here, that's still a bit much for me to feel comfortable with. I'd feel better in a "restricted to members" section. I'm more or less okay with you guys watching, but less so with a bunch of unknown people.

So I do post videos – somewhat reluctantly, but I actually need the feedback, be it criticism or encouragement (both are nice). I don't have -or want- a teacher, that wouldn't go well, and I have stopped the orchestra and don't know if I'll ever go back. The videos help me stay motivated - set goals etc. Parties are nice for that.

@BillyG about the violin being harder because you play only one note at a time – well, I always considered that as a point for the violin being easier. For the learning part, at least (maybe not when you perform to an audience, I get your point ; double stops are even harder because it sounds bad as soon as one of them is not spot on). I guess that's partly because I'm an ear-learner : one note at a time I can sing and memorise easily, which is harder to do when you have 3 notes to play with each hand simultaneously… that, and I'm crap at synchronising my hands on a piano.

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Fashionandfiddle
UK
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December 29, 2021 - 6:40 am
Member Since: August 12, 2021
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ELCBK said
Hey, Thanks everyone! 

🤣 ...there's no such thing as privacy, anymore.  Of course, as someone who has served in the Military, I learned this WAY before the internet existed - and pretty sure if you have a phone number, Bank account and an email address, your cover is blown. (lol) 

BUT, that's just my personal opinion - I never expect everyone to agree. 🙄

 

  

 

I agree with this, without going into detail.  However, a digital footprint is more accessible in general, but the vast majority of people have one of those these days anyway, sometimes without even realising.  For personal reasons some people may not want to expand that footprint.

 

Perhaps I can maybe re-phrase what I think I can ascertain from your post @ELCBK?

After reading many of the other posts in this thread I was swaying with should I post videos, should I not again?  So, I have taken some time to reflect.

 

When I joined here and said I was worried about sounding bad, both @ELCBK and @Fiddlerman said go ahead and the forum is friendly. I was unsure because I'm learning myself, never had a lesson. On another digital space someone had asked about learning themselves and I'd offered my advice on how I started, I was ridiculed and told I could not play without a teacher. What were they afraid of? How was I harming them?

With every respect to teachers, I can't afford one.  I have two young children who need things, so lessons are not a priority. I also have a crazy busy life and time for a lesson is very difficult to schedule.

But I wanted to play, that's what brought me here, to the free resources that Fiddlerman has for people to get started.  Since then I have been learning from books, I have many that I have bought new and used.  I read a lot, I play every day for 45 minutes to an hour, sometimes twice a day. I read the internet, I watch videos on youtube. I do everything I can to improve and I try really, really hard.  I love playing music.

So, to the videos being posted, I think the message is that it's sad that some feel un-confident to leave videos, or that something in their life means they can't. Or something has affected them making them feel inadequate.  

It shouldn't be that way, nobody should ever feel they can't do something because they can't do it in a certain way, because they don't have the money, because they don't have access to certain things. Nobody should feel that they need to take their videos down, but if they do then that's ok, but don't feel anyone is putting pressure on you and that you are not good enough in any way, shape or form, or that you are embarrassed about what you posted in the past.  In everything we do there is progression, be that learning to walk or growing in a career! We never stop learning, we never stop growing, there will always be stages in that process. 

@ELCBK    I appreciate that with some videos missing it perhaps means threads on the forum lose the 'moment' that they were in and people using the forum can't enjoy the videos then utilise/learn from some of the thoughts and comments and the context, hence 'sad' that they can't stay for the future.  

I will carry on posting videos, respect to all who don't want to too. thumbs-up

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
December 29, 2021 - 10:02 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
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wtw said.....

@BillyG about the violin being harder because you play only one note at a time – well, I always considered that as a point for the violin being easier. For the learning part, at least (maybe not when you perform to an audience, I get your point ; double stops are even harder because it sounds bad as soon as one of them is not spot on). I guess that's partly because I'm an ear-learner : one note at a time I can sing and memorise easily, which is harder to do when you have 3 notes to play with each hand simultaneously… that, and I'm crap at synchronising my hands on a piano.  

@wtw aye, you got it!   The "easiest" violin to play is a fretted-violin (and I don't mean "tapes" - I'm referring to an actual fretted instrument !  LOL  ( and no, I don't have one !  I can imagine folks "pitch bending" on a fretted violin as you would do on a guitar - that just is so hilarious....  but clearly possible Hahahaha!!!!)

Yeah - I guess my point was targeted on the fact that to make a solo violin performance sound really sound good - it's the dynamics, expression and passion the player puts into a performance more than ONLY having great intonation and timing - if that's ALL you have (the perfect (almost) intonation and timing - might as well have a robot playing... LOL

I too am a "play-by-ear" person - and I find when I go to a tune for the first time, I have not just the "top line melody" in my head - but other parts of the piece - perhaps where - it could be a pop song or anything - the lead melody gives way to other instruments/voices/rhythms - and I'll often carry these things over into the "version" I solo.  I find that hugely interesting (and rewarding!)

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
December 29, 2021 - 10:19 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
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@Fashionandfiddle -

When I joined here and said I was worried about sounding bad, both @ELCBK and @Fiddlerman said go ahead and the forum is friendly. I was unsure because I'm learning myself, never had a lesson. On another digital space someone had asked about learning themselves and I'd offered my advice on how I started, I was ridiculed and told I could not play without a teacher. What were they afraid of? How was I harming them?

Been there....  seen it, read it (not directed at me personally) - but I don't like closed-mined attitudes like that at all or the "bullying" that goes with it.  I left. within weeks...   (probably the same place of which you speak LOL)

Enjoyed reading your post and thoughts !   And that is precisely why this forum has to be the best there is out there.  So there Pierre !thumbs-up  Well done!

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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ELCBK
USA
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December 29, 2021 - 10:38 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
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@wtw - 

I really appreciate you learn by ear - you are one of the few members I know here who does this and I prefer it! 

 

@Fashionandfiddle -

Thank you - you get it! 🥰 

...I am self-taught, also - just reached 2½ years. 

Really like your approach to learning and think you've started down a great path. 

 

For wtw, and others who chose to remove your videos -

I understand there is a personal choice involved here - I do NOT criticize these personal rights and I did not intend to make anyone feel they owed an explanation. 😊  

From my point of view, a 'choice' implies there are multiple possibilities.  My words are only an attempt to persuade more thought on this. 

I LOVE that we ALL interpret music differently - especially at different stages of learning. 🤗

You all play music I find interesting enough that I want to explore more about these pieces and what everyone does/doesn't do, but I can't absorb everything all at once - or even remember the names of what everyone plays. 

So, when I finally have more time and a video has been removed - it is sad for 'me', because I feel I've missed a great chance to learn more, but also sad that circumstances exist to remove them. 

I'm very grateful for what you ALL post - and I think some of you are also interested in what I learn, see things you would do differently and, I hope, try to play something you might not otherwise think of. 

 

https://clipground.com/images/christian-happy-new-year-clipart-12.jpg

- Emily

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