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Youtube copyright stuff
Placeholder thread intended for the discussion regarding youtube copyright policies to be moved here
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Ferenc Simon
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January 25, 2018 - 7:24 am
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@Demoiselle You might want to check up on current copyright policies and the system used by Youtube. It's not all that black and white 🙂 

Here's an article that sums it up pretty well, in fact it kind of presents the angle of the publishers and assumes that everything goes according to their plans (since it's from a licensing website).

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/.....explained/

Even this version of events is pretty pleasant and isn't all that bad, but it doesn't touch on the actual copyright laws regarding fair use, which would be a major 'deal-breaker' for them in cases like these.

Basically in the event that anyone would ever mess with you for these types of videos (or the one I posted up there) you pretty much have an almost perfect defense when it comes to proving 'fair-use', since it's for educational / non-profit purposes (since you're learning violin.. and especially if you don't monetize it).. it's your interpretation of the song which might add new meaning to it.. and it's highly unlikely you would influence the revenue of the rights holders in any way. (I'm pretty sure my Yesterday 'cover' won't prevent anyone from buying Beatles songs... if anything it gives them some free advertisement) 

But in any case Youtube generally tries to automatically recognize songs and share the ad-revenue with the appropriate right holders.. so basically they 'take care' of the licensing part for you.. and the only time your videos get taken down is when the content owners actually complain (which is usually only in extreme cases when you're really trying to make a profit from someone else's work) and even then your channel is safe, since it takes 3 strikes (3 separate cases of you being 'evil' and trying to profit from other people's works acting like it's your own...) for your account to be deleted and you can constantly monitor the number of these strikes and you also get notified.

As an example I used to have over 50 song covers on my youtube channel (singing and playing guitar) and none of them was ever taken down, the ones recognized were simply set to share ad revenue with the content owners... Since then I set all of them to private so they're no longer available to watch.. but I never had a single strike against my account 😉 

Anyway.. I realize that it's up to everyone to make their own decision in this matter.. so I'm pretty sure if you weren't comfortable doing this in the past, this might not suddenly change your mind 🙂 Just wanted to drop this information here in case you didn't know or something 🙂 

Cheers

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Demoiselle
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January 26, 2018 - 7:16 am
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Ferenc Simon said
@Demoiselle You might want to check up on current copyright policies and the system used by Youtube. It's not all that black and white 🙂 
..................................... Even this version of events is pretty pleasant and isn't all that bad, but it doesn't touch on the actual copyright laws regarding fair use, which would be a major 'deal-breaker' for them in cases like these.

I performed a lot, in the 80s with a semi-professional swing combo, and in the 90s I was that soul diva (who later sounded more black). But I became also my own tv producer and there I had to learn copyright laws thoroughly. That means I partly had to attend the schooling of media education in the public tv station. That's why I know all the copyright risks and that makes me more careful than most internet users are.

Basically I think you're right. Youtube didn't take on those yet, who just cover copyrighted songs. There are also people who improvise over Aebersold jazz play-alongs and they did it for many years on Youtube and still do it. Youtube mainly takes on those who load up copyrighted movies because the movie companies insist on it.

But this doesn't mean Youtube won't ever take on those who publish cover songs with copyrighted melodies and lyrics. We don't know that.... The software to search musical subjects online gets better and better and it may be profitable someday to get money out of these amateurs. And I think, if it will pay because it gets easier, copyright holders like Warner Music, Sony ect. will do it. I have heard of a case in which the GEMA here in Germany sent a bill to a singing club who had sung in a village pub just for fun. Just bad luck because a GEMA guy had gone to that concert. They do even that, because the big copyright holders are after even that money! I also remember a amateur rock festival where I attended the sittings in which it was prepared. There was some trouble with the GEMA who wanted them to pay a fixed rate in advance. The rock club told them, "Well, all our band play their own compositions." The GEMA then replied, "We will be at you concert and if we will hear any copyrighted phrase, it may get really expensive...."  And as the rock club could not guarantee that this wouldn't happen, they payed in advance. Getting in trouble with GEMA is really a lot like having trouble with the tax agency. And the bills they send can easily be several hundred Euros.

Why should I take that risk? I'm an improviser, citing earworms on the violin bores me to death because I need change and spontaneity. My Youtube channel has a header which took me many hours to adapt it to the channel format. I carefully pick the videos I present and the melodies are hundreds of years old. My old movie director from the 90s made me laugh myself to death. He recently was like, "You shouldn't have just a band, you belong in front of an orchestra!" I told him, "You guys should have supported me when I was young and cute, it's  too late my friend!" That's it. And now I do just what pleases me. Some people still ask why I don't sing my old hits anymore. Well, make a decent music hall real full with people who are ready, able and willing to pay real entrance.... Yes, I sing Yesterday, everything they want, but people make the mistake to think it's all easy. No it's not. A big sounds needs big transportation and huge effort to prepare such event. No-no, I play church hymns of the 1600s for old people on the violin, sing and improvise. Because that's my favorite baroque style. I do it for free and can maybe cheer up a few old people. First I have to look for a guitar player in church communities, someone who likes baroque too. So it's good I can send a link so musicians can see what style I'm playing in.

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Demoiselle
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January 26, 2018 - 7:32 am
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Oh, I forgot: fair use is an American rule, I don't know much about it, to what extend it might be just a myth. As I don't know American copyright law.

Yes, for education, and by the way for use in churches, there's an exemption. But education means schools, not private people educating themselves. If you prepare music for a worship service or holy mass you're safe. As music teacher in a public school you're too. But your concert in the gymnasium of the school.....I don't know, but I doubt you safe then. I also doubt a concert would be safe in the community hall of a church. It's just a question of luck: will GEMA hear about it and will they send someone...... That guy will give you a list and ask you to fill in all the songs you play. And then you're worried until the bill comes because you have no idea how high it will be..... That is definitely not funny.

Copyright rules of Youtube? Youtube doesn't make those rules, government, parliament/congress does. If you talk to the judge at court he will be amused if you refer to Youtube rules. And governments have transnational agreements worldwide, so there's an international copyright law too. The laws in your country add on and they may be even stricter. Right now the EU is getting tough on social media and partly it's about copyright. Corporations aren't mightier than governments, thanks God they aren't. The(m) guys who put you on handcuffs are still being sent by governments. Google's afraid of handcuffs too certainly. ;D

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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AndrewH
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January 26, 2018 - 7:54 am
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Under US law, amateur covers for self-education purposes are generally considered fair use. I can't stick around and post a detailed explanation right now, but I'll try to find some time tonight or over the weekend to discuss fair use.

(I'm a patent lawyer in my day job; while I don't deal with copyright issues a lot, I'm at least familiar with US copyright law as it falls under the IP umbrella.)

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Demoiselle
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January 26, 2018 - 8:03 am
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Ferenc Simon said
The fact that you have a story to go along with it adds even more to its value 🙂 I only wrote a single song that was completely done by me. It was meant sort of as a graduation song for a couple of friends. It's quite cringy and the lyrics are decent, though perhaps a bit too 'mainstream'.. Nevertheless it can be a lovely song, though I only ever played it a few times acoustically and there is just a single pretty bad quality recording I made right after I wrote it.. (They each received an mp3 player with this song on it, it was kind of a last minute gift idea...) The whole process took like 2 hours, since it kind of came naturally (well that.. and I was short on time since as usual I left everything to the last minute).  

When I was 30 I felt like it would honor me if I composed my own songs. In fact I had started composing in the 80s and even tried a couple things in the 70s when I was a teenager. And I assumed it would be fun to play my own songs. In the meantime I made the experience again and again, that other people's songs inspire me more. In fact I had 3 own compositions in the 90s which were regional hits. One of it was a summer hit with a rap part that beat all international hits in the poll of a public transportation event. But apart from these 3 songs I made the experience people prefer to hear melodies they knew before. Would be like Yesterday, O Sole Mio ect. - common people go for that. And these people will be not happy if I improvise. So if I have that kind of audience, who just loves easy listening, they will not allow me to improvise much. They will tend  to leave if I try. So it's better to have a jazz audience because they appreciate improvisation. Or you are paid like international stars and improvise in your free time in some small pub.

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Demoiselle
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January 26, 2018 - 8:20 am
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AndrewH said
Under US law, amateur covers for self-education purposes are generally considered fair use. I can't stick around and post a detailed explanation right now, but I'll try to find some time tonight or over the weekend to discuss fair use.

(I'm a patent lawyer in my day job; while I don't deal with copyright issues a lot, I'm at least familiar with US copyright law as it falls under the IP umbrella.)  

That's very interesting and actually the kind of copyright law I would prefer. What I actually learned in the first place was tax law, so at least I have an idea how law generally works (which is bad for the company who rents the apartment to me because they at times have a difficult time....).

Being that nice to amateurs wasn't the case at all during the 90s. But after hearing you now, I think about giving GEMA a call. Because the recent international agreements I talked about may have changed something also in the EU. Stupidly the EU updated Gershwin's Lady Be Good to the clock of his brother's lyrics which made me furious. The clock of that melody was about to run up and EU parliament set it back. Totally unnecessary to give in to the corporations in this case. That's not supporting creative musicians if it comes to jazz. As I personally feel, copyright should end just with death of the composer. THAT would be helping art and encourage people to musically be creative! I mean amateurs and professionals. But what do I care now, living in the 1600s/1700s?

By the way, I still have a map from a notary with all my 90s songs.

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Demoiselle
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January 26, 2018 - 8:29 am
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AndrewH said
................(I'm a patent lawyer in my day job; while I don't deal with copyright issues a lot, I'm at least familiar with US copyright law as it falls under the IP umbrella.)  

So everybody update your profiles to "live in USA" and then be safe.

us-4240us-4240us-4240us-4240us-4240

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Ferenc Simon
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January 26, 2018 - 8:44 am
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@Demoiselle Actually no one will laugh when Youtube is mentioned in a court... they get scared instead 😉 Youtube is a small part of one of the richest corporations on the planet (Alphabet).. they have access to almost unlimited funds and pretty much the best lawyers. Now how does that come into play? They have a protection program for their users so if you ARE actually being sued by one of the license holders and Youtube thinks it's unfair.. they protect you, taking care of all legal fees (all the way up to a million dollars).

Also they generally follow the US copyright law, since the content is on their site and their company is based there so other regional authorities like the GEMA you mention have no rule over their content, the best they could do is have the video be unavailable in Germany. Youtube also works closely with licensing authorities and negotiates these deals like the revenue sharing and so on so they can pay the royalties to the content holders on your behalf and your video can stay online.. So no, it's not just a random video portal it started out to be a few years ago anymore 🙂 They have strong ties everywhere 🙂 

I may be wrong though, since I'm no expert.. but I tried looking these up simply out of curiosity a year ago or so... and that's pretty much how I understood it... I'm sure Andrew will clear stuff up... 

But in the meantime I can't help, but mention that we are getting awfully side-tracked haha... Maybe someone should move all these posts to a separate 'copyright discussion' topic so we don't occupy all this precious real-estate in this nice Beatles party thread 😀

Cheers

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Demoiselle
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January 27, 2018 - 6:40 am
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I know you don't but many average people talk like a 9 year old: "Daddy is mightier than the state." Well, if you closely follow the news and are interested in politics you learn: daddy is not. But if daddy cares about politics—which is a lot about discussing and making law—he can even beat a big corporation. Like the big corporation who owns my whole neighborhood.

Actually it's not much different in the USA where Facebook is under pressure because of Russian fake news. Here in Europe American corporations want to do business too and they tried to ignore our law. Google had to give in to our data privacy rules years ago. Then it was copyright and now it's their monopolism and refusing to share with smaller companies. Facebook recently tried to ignore our hate speech rules and German government and EU got really tough on them. A couple days ago an Austrian lawyer and media activist won a law suit against Facebook. Facebook tries to use Ireland as kinda fortress and act from there, "You have to sue us in Ireland." No, that Austrian lawyer doesn't have to. The uninformed lose, any corporation can play with them like a cat with a mouse. Ireland is under pressure too in the EU because they try to be a lawless El Dorado for big corporations and invite them to a kind of freedom the EU doesn't allow. It takes years but Ireland will have to give in unless they want to start a Irexit.

Google and Facebook are not just American corporations, they have facilities and managers here in Europe who have to obey our law. Like Germans easily end in jail in the U.S. after doing wrong things in the name of Volkswagen. They also thought like, "What do we care, we are a German corporation with international power." It was stupid what they did and now they pay a high prize. Walmart once thought they would be powerful enough to conquer Europe and destroy our worker protection. They gave up the idea to enter our market because they would have to change their ideas completely for we won't ever adapt our rules to them. I know how those people talk, "Europe, that's communism." Because they're disappointed and angry.

I can explain to you how it works because I live it: My neighborhood was bought off by a big corporation (one of the biggest in the world) who tried to scare away renters. I tried to convince many people to resist, but most didn't believe me and moved out. Those who advise renters in the name of my district called me the winner of the modernization because the rent I pay is still pretty low. I exchanged a couple letters with the lawyer of my opponent and finally they gave in, because I didn't let the craftspeople in due to legally invalid declaration of that modernization. I certainly visited a lawyer who is specialized on law of tenancy now and then, but you have to be interested too to make your decisions. The strategy of those lawyers is, "We do not give advice to landlords and never inform them about their mistakes." The whole quarter was scaffolded but I didn't open the door for weeks and just wrote letters. And they had to give in to all my claims because they wanted to rip out the gas pipe but gas was part of my contract. Providing just one renter of a quarter with gas? No, they gave in to all my other points and I agreed to ending gas supply. Their declaration from years ago was worth nothing, I did not have to open my door to craftspeople. My apartment then was modernized too but I got that modernization cheaply. That was over 10 years ago, so I really had no negative consequences in the aftermath. Like many people are afraid because they think they're powerless.

I got a bill about about additional payment recently which was excessive because they had charged something twice. And they learned it again: They ignored my objection and took all that money from my bank account, I corrected their bill, typed it completely new and wrote them, "This new update is now valid." And it was, my lawyer said I can stop their billing because they broke rules and I booked the money back to my account. Then I transferred the money according to the bill I had typed. Corporations like that usually sent brutal reminders then to scare people. I then explained to them what would happen if the sued me: They would lose because their bill was ridiculous and my one correct. I'm certainly a member of a tenants union and have insurance for tenant lawsuits there.

Jane Doe keeps telling you little people would be powerless. She will possibly lose her dear hometown she had been born in and be depressed for the rest of her life. Because she refuses to care about politics and democracy which is to empower people. There's a term for a state in which corporations rule. It's called fascism and we don't have that and we don't care to get ourselves into that. Even if daily politics are shitty and annoying people have to care about democracy. If the majority forgets the importance of democracy they go ahead terrible and cruel times. That's why I think this way too long opus is necessary, because people have to care about their rights.

----------

My recent posting here was total overdo. It was a terrible off-topic before shifting here, so I'm sorry for that. I'm like a novelist with a writing addiction who can't stop typing. So I see the need to cut back now. I'm not a person who feels good in crowds and on parties, that's why forums aren't much my element anyhow. I call it Jean Arthur syndrome.

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Demoiselle
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January 27, 2018 - 6:50 am
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I'm missing one little info in my above GEMA part:

In Germany pubs and clubs usually pay a flat rate to GEMA, so if a band is hired formally by a pub the band probably won't get into trouble with GEMA.

My violin is a 3/4 violin, made for right-handed players, though I play it left-handed. As I felt she was the best in the shop of all 3/4 violins I tried and the luthier agreed. I prefer Obligato strings together with Eudoxa E string.

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Ferenc Simon
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Yes of course, you're right when it comes to that phase. I mean if you're already neck deep then you should definitely try to fight it, especially if you know you're right. 

I had bills like that too... back in the days where mobile internet was done in small bursts and each time you connected there was a small connection fee. An email account was configured on my phone, but it never ever worked, since the company didn't support it and actually blocked it by firewall so I even forgot that I ever set it up. It went like that for more than a year then the company changed something in their internal settings, without any notification or anything.. Suddenly every 5 minutes when my email application on the phone tried to connect and they blocked it just like before.. they started applying the connection fee, even though I never once received a single email, since they kept blocking it.. At the middle of the month I got a 'scary' text message telling me that they disabled my number for calling and I should pay a huge deposit up front if I want to keep using it. Obviously I didn't since the sum was ridiculous and I had no idea why my bill was so high, since I didn't use my phone more than usual. I called them and they revealed that it's for data connections... so I checked their website and saw that every 5 minutes the initial connection fee was applied, but there was absolutely no data afterwards (since they were blocking it.. and if I had received even a single email I would've known to disable it.. or set the interval higher or something). In the meantime I was getting harassed by operators as to how I intend on resolving my debt towards them.. etc... Ultimately I wrote the company regional director a huge email explaining the situation and the fact that they're charging me for something I did not benefit from.. since I never received a single email, since they were blocking them all and all my bill is made up is just an endless amounts of connection fees, without any data received to my phone.. A few weeks later I got an apology letter from their director in the mail and they dropped my 'debt'... So yea I definitely agree in fighting big corporations if you've been wronged instead of getting scared and running away.. Just think about it.. a case like this could cost them way more in terms of bad reputation if it gets out and you're actually right. 

This wasn't the reason I was talking about big corporations 🙂 I actually quoted them for a very different reason.. which is also very rare.. I was saying that in this particular case a big corporation is willing to take the side of the 'little guy' - their user - to defend him / her against other big corporations.. which I think is pretty awesome if it ever comes to that.. 

Also there are those cases where the governments draw the short straw, regardless of the fact that they make up the rules, if you remember the famous case with that locked iphone last year or so... 

Anyway, let us not talk about politics and switch back to 'policies' instead (meaning copyright policies) as that's actually an interesting subject and could be useful to other members as well.. I'm still curious as to what Andrew has to say to all this, he's a professional after all 🙂 

Cheers!

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