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Gavotte
Previous complaints of hand pains. reviewing the posture
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (14 votes) 
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andy

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November 13, 2023 - 4:21 pm
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Hi, I'm posting regarding my another post with respect to my son's complains about pain in his hand. 

Could you please review his posture? 

 

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stringy
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November 13, 2023 - 4:57 pm
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I think his intonation is really good, and his playing as well, (better than me already)children pick things up very quickly.

Has he got a teacher?

For me his posture resembles that of fiddle players rather than classical, a classical player would hold the violin further back instead of so far forward, for what it's worth I think he is too hunched over by that is my opinion only, has he tried plying stood up with the music more in line with his eyes,I fear he may hurt his neck, and no one wants that to happen to a young kid.

Fiddlermam himself or Andrew H or some of the more experienced players would be better placed to analyse his position if they would, but others on here may have more insight than me. But my own thoughts are he is holding it to far forward for classical and to low down at the scroll as well, this could put pressure on his neck and therefore into his hand due to nerve connectivity, but I am no expert by any way.

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Mouse
November 13, 2023 - 5:04 pm
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As compared to orchestras, I think his music stand needs to be raised, I do not think he should be looking down like that. I think his legs and feet are not supposed to be in the positions they are in either, I am not a major violinist, I play cello more. 

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.

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ELCBK
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November 13, 2023 - 6:01 pm
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@andy -

Sounds good!  You have a very talented Son!

No more pain? 

 

Yes, raise the music stand, or use a lower stool. 

The Fiddlerman photos in this link - showing how to hold the violin & bow properly might help. 

https://fiddlerman.com/fiddle-.....o-i-start/

Nothing wrong with taking a look back at the basics.

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andy

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November 13, 2023 - 6:13 pm
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ELCBK said
@andy -

Sounds good!  You have a very talented Son!

No more pain? 

Thanks for all the replies. I'll show him. 

He said pains are associated with playing "La Folia". I'll try to capture video again to see what's so special about that song. 

 

Yes, raise the music stand, or use a lower stool. 

The Fiddlerman photos in this link - showing how to hold the violin & bow properly might help. 

https://fiddlerman.com/fiddle-.....o-i-start/

Nothing wrong with taking a look back at the basics.

  

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andy

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November 13, 2023 - 6:15 pm
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Thanks for all the replies. I'll show him. 

He said pains are associated with playing "La Folia". I'll try to capture video again to see what's so special about that song. 

 

Andy

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Mouse
November 13, 2023 - 6:18 pm
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He sounds really nice! But, I was watching the bow, and it seems like he is adjusting to miss he leg when bowing the E string. I think adjust the sitting so he is siting on the corner, more or less will help. Being I play mostly cello, I am having a hard time explaining. Maybe since I pointed that out, someone can chime in on that aspect. I may be wrong, but it looks like maybe he is aware of the leg/knee and is adjusting for it, even subconsciously, out of habit . I think that could be a problem as he progresses.

Posture, I think is very important and best to fix it now.

I cannot believe how smoothly he plays.

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.

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stringy
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November 13, 2023 - 6:41 pm
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Watched it again, I think he would be better standing up, he looks like he is consciously trying to avoid banging the scroll of the fidddle into the music stand which is caused by having to lean forward to read the music, and is also causing him to bring  the fiddle round in front of him.

My opinion for what it's worth is he would be better standing up, with the stand raised higher, violin held further back, with his back straighter and maybe his reading glasses need checking so he doesn't have to lean into it to read it.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Make sure he doesn't end up with back problems at a young age.

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ELCBK
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November 14, 2023 - 12:33 am
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@andy -  

I can't see your Son's hands well enough in the video to comment, but since he is still having pain, maybe see if the concept in this video is helpful. 

 

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AndrewH
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November 14, 2023 - 2:06 am
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The technical problem I see is that his left thumb appears to be bent inward sometimes, which suggests that he's probably gripping the neck of the violin tightly at least some of the time, and that's probably the main reason he feels pain. It also looks like his wrist is "pancaking" when he reaches for notes with his third and forth fingers, which also suggests to me that there is some gripping going on. That said, from this angle it's hard to diagnose exactly what he's doing with his left hand and arm, because it's behind the sheet music for almost the entire video.

Sitting too high and looking down at the music stand definitely isn't helping because it looks like his left arm is against his side. His arm should swing over to the right to help him reach notes on lower strings, and right now that arm does not look free to move.

I also get the sense that the violin may be a bit too big for him, and that might be why he's holding it so far forward.

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ELCBK
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November 14, 2023 - 11:43 am
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c0a46f4a2d6370d2ed9512536ce19823--hey-diddle-diddle-for-cats.jpg@andy -

I edited the Murphy Music Academy video (Post #9) to start at 02:55, where Tobias shows a way to stop clenching the neck of the violin - to think differently about left hand finger action. 

It's a simple concept: think of tapping each finger to the thumb - NOT closing the hand on the neck (like making a fist).

Tobias also mentions (starting at 05:08) a student who had a different issue (clenching his thumb against the side of his hand), but exercises to loosen/relax his hand helped. 

 

Here's another good video that talks about the same idea, but Joy goes more in depth talking about releasing action of the fingers and learning to relax. 

Exercises start at 04:36, Joy shows how to get familiar with relaxing each finger, starting with the thumb.  Next, she addresses finger pressure.

 

 

I forgot to ask - do you have any experience playing the violin? 

- Emily

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andy

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November 15, 2023 - 3:13 am
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Thank you everyone for suggestions. 

@AndrewH We did the measurements of his arm and decided that it was time for him to jump to 4/4. He was on 1/2 before and so I guess he is still trying to adjust the change.

 

@ELCBK I'll show him the exercises. I myself does not play violin. He has been doing classes in elementary school.

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andy

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November 15, 2023 - 12:00 pm
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Here is the same song taken without obstruction

 

He was playing faster to compress play-time under 2 minutes (school audition tape limit)

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Unfretted
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November 15, 2023 - 1:22 pm
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@andy , thanks for sharing the videos of your son.

He clearly has already had some solid classical training which is obvious in his bowing technique, his intonation and his dexterity.  He has talent.

I truly hope you will find a way to provide him with quality in person instruction on the violin.  The last video you posted says it’s from a school audition tape.  Is he accepted in the school?  If so, the very best thing for you to do is to meet with his teachers and discuss any issues you have.  If not, perhaps you could get advice from any other violin instructors he has had in the past.  A dedicated teacher will take the time to advise you.

Personally, I think it is a grave mistake to get lost in the sea of endless random free YouTube videos, many of which are created by unqualified or uninformed people who simply post videos with “click bait” titles hoping to make a few cents off of the clicks.  There is so much misinformation out there! The few quality websites that offer serious instruction from experienced, educated instructors (such as Violin Lab for classical, or FiddleHed for other styles) are usually paid sites with subscription plans. (@Fiddlerman does have some free, quality instructional videos posted and he is highly skilled, but that is the exception.)

There are differing approaches to violin instruction and each educator has refined his own method over time.  Varying approaches often do not mix and can lead to contradictions and confusion.  A good teacher has a defined plan that unfolds over time in the context of the student’s progress.  A toxic buffet of random You Tube videos without structure or sequence would be a disaster for a serious aspiring violinist, especially a young one.  The most important “watching” that goes on in musical training is the teacher observing the student’s technique and providing personalized feedback.

Your talented son merits a music education that will enable his abilities to blossom.  Hope you can find a way to provide that.

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Mouse
November 15, 2023 - 2:02 pm
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I agree with @Unfretted. Well said. 😁

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.

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Unfretted
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November 15, 2023 - 2:09 pm
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Mouse said
I agree with @Unfretted. Well said. 😁

🐭

Thank you @Mouse . 😊

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andy

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November 15, 2023 - 2:47 pm
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Audition was for elementary school talent show. He is part of elementary school string program and hoping to continue with Middle School and High school orchestra. 

 

Thanks for all the support....

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ELCBK
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November 15, 2023 - 6:12 pm
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@andy -

Thank you for sharing Ronald's audition performance! 

He looks very comfortable & played very well! 

It's hard to imagine he has had any issues with pain, but everyone probably has experienced some at one time. 

We are NOT professional teachers here on this forum, except for Fiddlerman & Fiddlershop has an Academy, but the site is undergoing maintenance.  As for the rest of us here, we are a very diverse group, but we each notice things - and everyone I know genuinely wants to be helpful. 

There are good videos made by Teachers on YouTube - that is what I share, because people learn differently and sometimes a different perspective can be like turning a light on in a dark room. 

I'll offer up one last video I like, this one is about the Left Hand Wrist - by Prof William Fitzpatrick.  I love his explanations and his approach on using the left wrist may help Ronald.  

NOTE: please take care, he is NOT suggesting to bend the wrist.

 

 

Being a Grandmother, I know it's hard for parents to determine what the best information is for their children AND what the best way to approach them with it is!  I think it's wonderful that you are making inquiries, because it's important that parents get involved to help!  

If Ronald is still having pain when playing a certain piece, maybe the videos can help you & Ronald narrow down where in the hand the pain is - so you can discuss it further with Ronald's teacher, or a physician. 

Thank you again, for sharing Ronald's performance - I LOVED it!!! 

- Emily

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Mark
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November 16, 2023 - 12:07 am
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andy,

Tell you son he played it well, I hope you can find the root cause of his pain.

Thank you for taking the time to be involved with his musical intrest, and posting his progress.

Mark

Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.

Albert Sammons

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Fiddlerman
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November 16, 2023 - 4:07 pm
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andy said
Hi, I'm posting regarding my another post with respect to my son's complains about pain in his hand. 

Could you please review his posture? 

Hey Andy,

I'll be happy to analyze his posture but please record him standing while not reading music one time for me. Also, is it his left hand that is in pain?
I can see issues but I'm not entirely certain because the stand is covering up a lot.

It's obvious that he supports the violin too much with his left hand which doesn't allow his hand to rest. In turn he probably squeezes too much as well.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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