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Bow tips
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Irv
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February 15, 2019 - 12:57 pm
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Discouraged after going to pet store.  Much larger percentage of porous material than I expected, even at base.  But I did get one for experiment.  I now wonder if hoove could be used.  Dodd, the English bow maker, spent most of his time at London liveries.  I had assumed he salvaged horse hair from dead animals.  Perhaps he also took the hooves?

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 15, 2019 - 1:18 pm
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Doesn’t surprise me, I have worked with antlers before like I said, they are a bony structure and I also worry about them not being flexible because of it. Horns and hooves on the other hand are keratin based and should be more flexible and workable

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Irv
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February 15, 2019 - 1:22 pm
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I guess it is time to purchase some pickled pigs feet for science!

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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Irv
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February 15, 2019 - 1:59 pm
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Deer hooves have a black surface finish.  I assume that color is consistent throughout the material.  And since it is not a domestic animal, a deer hoove should be relatively clean to handle.  I think that a black bow tip would be attractive, with or without the use of matching black hair.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 15, 2019 - 2:18 pm
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Deer hooves might look good,  they have an outer shell like a nail that I think could be worked...

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Irv
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February 15, 2019 - 2:32 pm
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So you don’t think the hoove is homogeneous enough to be sawn into discs and machined?

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 15, 2019 - 2:44 pm
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 A deer hoof is basically two leathery pads with fingernails for lack of better words 

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Irv
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February 16, 2019 - 5:51 pm
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Stainless steel bow tip revisited.

I keep forgetting that we live in the future.  I had a day to think about an easy method of making a stainless steel bow tip.  Here goes.

Many foreign beers are available in a mini sized stainless steel keg.  The interior wall of the keg is protected with a polymer liner.  The exterior advertising is easily removed with a solvent.  The hair knot hole could be approximated with a hand held metal punch (Harbor Freight or similar) and filed to meet the wood with a diamond coated needle file (again, Harbor Freight or similar).  

No issue if polymer is missing on interior.  In that case glue to exterior advertising film.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 16, 2019 - 6:01 pm
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@Irv 

Metal makes me nervous

glue and no pins?

pinning is what scares me

 

i am dealing with a lady from Alaska Fur Exchange on possibly picking up some fossilized mammoth ivory and some fossilized walrus ivory also.  

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Irv
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February 16, 2019 - 7:17 pm
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I would not trust a glue bond directly on the metal, but think a glue bond on the polymer  (or advertising film) is worth a shot.  Correct.  Glue only and no pins.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 26, 2019 - 3:26 pm
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So I roughed out a mammoth ivory tip.  I need to make a bending form and soak the ivory and clamp it in the form to pre-shape it.FD358C45-C729-4FA0-B375-B223931C1BF6.jpegImage Enlarger

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steveduf
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February 26, 2019 - 3:28 pm
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I also pre-formed an ebony liner,  fooling around to see how flexible it was before soaking and broke it.   Next...1CA64A48-0A9D-4451-98ED-3331BDCB8EF9.jpegImage Enlarger

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steveduf
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February 26, 2019 - 4:23 pm
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Cut a new ebony liner,   Cut it out of an old tail piece. The grain in the first one was all wrong .  Thinned606C8DBB-AEE4-4EF8-8AD1-27AA79094A22.jpegImage Enlarger this one out, and it is very flexible

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Irv
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February 26, 2019 - 5:00 pm
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Hi @steveduf and others.  Suggested alternate method for ebony and ivory bending.  Assuming you have already made tip clamp recommended above.

Ebony.  Place prepared ebony tip and place on a stainless steel culinary mesh strainer. Suspended mesh strainer over an open pot of boiling water for about five minutes.  Remove tip from strainer and immediately clamp to bow head.  Remain in clamped position for an hour or so before glue up.

Ivory.  Immerse prepared ivory tip and place on culinary mesh strainer.  Immerse half of strainer (containing ivory tip) in a pot of boiling water for about 15 minutes.  Point of strainer is to suspend ivory from pot bottom to keep from scorching.  If you lack strainer, keep stirring water to keep tip suspended.  Remove tip fromstrainer and immediately clamp on bow head.  Remain in clamped position for an hour or so before glue up.

The above should work.  I will consult my Kun manual for making bows and will report back if he used a different method.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 26, 2019 - 5:43 pm
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In my reading...

basically the same thing... 

the site I read said to place it in boiling water but removed from heat.  Hence no scorching.  It also referred to molding it first before gluing.  Advantage to that would be if the piece cracks there is no glue involved yet.  

A lot of these sites use super glue which is why you wouldn’t want it wet.

i think I want to use hide glue, especially for whatever is glued to the stick, @Irv @Fiddlerman  what is your opinion on the glue?

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Irv
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February 26, 2019 - 6:10 pm
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Hi @steveduf .  The mention of the bending form threw me.  No way you want to use something like a rib bender.  

Hide glue or original Titebond should work fine for both the ebony and ivory.  I would use something like styrene model cement on the synthetic tip armor.  

I would try to avoid the use of any type of glue for the hair wedges, and particularly stay away from super glue on the wedge.  I get loads of cf bows for the cost of postage because the oriental technicians insist on making them “throw aways” by this practice.  

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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steveduf
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February 26, 2019 - 6:28 pm
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@Irv 

definitely don’t use any glue on the rehair,  molding the tip uses the same shoe mold used in gluing tip to bow but also  uses a foot in the shoe for lack of better words to make a two piece mold for the liner and tip.  Evidently with mammoth ivory there is not much “spring-back” after releasing from mold... we shall see.  

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Fiddlerman
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February 26, 2019 - 8:43 pm
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Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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bocaholly
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February 26, 2019 - 9:14 pm
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steveduf said
So I roughed out a mammoth ivory tip.  ...FD358C45-C729-4FA0-B375-B223931C1BF6.jpegImage Enlarger  

Made me think of this guy:
aQAAAPZAADAcW1tb2QAAAAAAAAGEAAAoC4AAAAA0OXuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=

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Irv
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February 26, 2019 - 9:55 pm
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A6BF4658-9215-4A5A-A64D-E98352D30A18.jpeg@steveduf and others.  I went to a luthier last week who mentioned another glue option of which I have no experience.  He uses fish glue and said that it had more tack than hide glue.  

You might want to provide a hole on the ebony and ivory before you glue them to the head.  Harbor Freight and others sell a hand held plier type hole punch that comes with various sized punch sets.  I think that they go for about $20.  I think that you would get a cleaner hole from something like that than a drill.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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