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I LOVE music that has a Swing or Syncopation, seems an important part of almost ALL the music I like - and there's nothing I enjoy more than playing along with videos & video performers who use it. Whether 'long, short' or 'short, long' swing, like Strathspeys & Hornpipes, or syncopated Rags, Stomps & Breakdowns, etc... they wouldn't be anything special without their uneven rhythms!
The recent GP "It's Beginning To Look a Lot Like Christmas" has made me want to start with 'Swing', to explore not only how I can interpret this broad-term rhythm, but I want to learn to share how I feel it... in a way others can understand.
I'm starting to see that 'Swing' seems like a pretty vague, or broad term... there's definitely different amounts of swing rhythm in different genres of music, but lately I've started noticing some tempo fluctuations/changes in swung pieces, which makes me think this must also be important.
Right now I can share a video of myself performing, but I want to be able to share notation & share whatever audio tracks I can make in a DAW. So far, I've had nothing but frustration trying to use Musescore for getting rhythm right (omg, it's been a whole year since I tried to use it for a strathsbey!) - and GAVE UP.
I probably can't start doing anything meaningful until after the Christmas holidays, but I want to try to tackle Musescore again, and I have PreSonus Studio to start with. I'm not really settled on using any one specific DAW, or even if I should be settled on only one.
Of course, any help offered during my exploration will be appreciated.
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I'm looking closely at this, because I have trouble playing along with a straight score that just says to 'play it with swing', or some descriptive word for any syncopation. This problem all started with the traditional music I first began my violin journey with - and was resolved by LISTENING to a lot of each kind, ignoring any notation.
One problem I have with Musescore, is you can add a percentage of 'Swing' to a score, BUT IT IS ONLY HEARD - NOTHING IS CHANGED IN THE NOTATION when you add swing!
So, I'm kinda back to 'what can I do in notation', because I don't think there's any 'one' blanket 'thing' that can be applied to a WHOLE Swung or Syncopated score. I don't see where music with uneven rhythms have the same unevenness throughout the WHOLE piece. 🤔... if they did, THAT would be boring.
This is why I LOVE the way 'Gibbles' and the Fiddlershop Quartet PLAY, in "It's Beginning To Look a Lot Like Christmas".
I compared the use of notes in the 1st Violin Part of our 2023 Virtual Group Xmas Project (in 4/4 time, with only a few dotted quarter notes and no sixteenth notes) - to this video score in 2/2 time, with not only more dotted notes and the use of 16th notes, but also unevenly spaced triplets.
This video (NOT a substitute for the GP score) makes it easier for me to play along with a swung rhythm, so I want to look closer at it how it is notated - free pdf.
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Now, what about the timing thing I've been noticing - little variances in tempo that seems to be important along with the uneven rhythm?
Notating a bunch of little tempo changes would clutter up a score and not sure how useful tempo 'words' are, since they represent a range of tempo. Is this where a Band or Orchestra Conductor becomes most important & relied upon?
🤔... I was wondering about just visually stretching out certain bars in the notation, visually stretching the distance between the notes within a bar? It kinda looks like a little of this was done in the Michelle Haughian Violin (It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas) video.
Then THIS video caught my eye!
This uses Logic Pro X to map the uneven tempo!
First, the original tempo is removed & then the tempo is aligned to the downbeats! It gives a click-track that sounds NATURAL, not forced into a box of one rhythm/one tempo! I think this would be FABULOUS for ALL uneven music tracks!
I really need to find a similar function in a Windows DAW - anyone know about this?
🤔... okay, that's great for an audio track, BUT HOW DOES IT TRANSLATE TO SCORE NOTATION?
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Okay, I take another big jump here... because I gotta know where I wanna go if I wanna get there!
The video also uses Logic Pro X for a DAW - so I need to look into this more, like do I really have to give in & buy a Mac?
"Swing More" comes with what might seem a hefty price tag... but considering prices in general now-a-days, maybe not so bad.
I do not completely understand how this software differs from others - if it's the rhythms & articulations, I mean this seems like it's 'just' instrument sampling, or is it more?
Still, I have NO clue if using software like this will translate to better score notation... so, being lazy, I think I'm back to where I need to see if anything new has come out - is there is a good program (yet) that will accurately notate a score from a midi?
...seems most I looked into (in the past) aren't very accurate.
Anyway, I'll be spending a lot of time here - already quite a bit to get me started poking around & interested in learning.
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I really like this idea of custom mapping the tempo of a recording that is swung or has a syncopated rhythm! It would allow me be much more expressive, but also have a track others can follow (or myself playing a 2nd voice), plus it's still possible to add virtual instruments.
I looked at using a few other DAW for this - ones that can be used with Windows.
Studio One videos I've watched show mapping to the start of each bar - not the downbeats (but important transients can be added). It is advised NOT use the Melodyne 'tempo editing', but I think the 'tempo detection' is helpful (not shown in this video).
Looked at several different ways on Reaper, this video was the most helpful for me to understand custom mapping to the down beats of a recording.
I've been leaning more toward Bitwig lately (and I can interchange info with Studio One), rather than Ableton Live - so, looked to see what videos were available & ran across something extremely exciting for creating 'my own' swing or syncopated rhythms from scratch.
...I need to get back to how notation can be made from these audio tracks, but think I better stop here - until after Halloween.
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@elcbk said... "One problem I have with Musescore, is you can add a percentage of 'Swing' to a score, BUT IT IS ONLY HEARD - NOTHING IS CHANGED IN THE NOTATION when you add swing!
swing isnt notated. Its like say... seeing pianissimo on the sheet and expecting the sheet music to have that notated somehow.
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@ABitRusty -
🤔... I thought you'd hear swing in 2nd post sheet music video.
It isn't possible to notate rhythm?
If the beats & transients can be mapped out accurately, why can't notation reflect that?
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ELCBK said
🤔... I thought you'd hear swing in 2nd post sheet music video.
It isn't possible to notate rhythm?
If the beats & transients can be mapped out accurately, why can't notation reflect that?
The one with guy on piano? yes just watched. He is pretty much saying same thing.. and points out its a human feel kinda thing. for notation software, and we discussed aomewhere in another topic.. there is a setting for swing expressed in a percentage... he even says ...maybe its 60..maybe its 58 somewhere in between.
idk..I feel like an imposter trying to explain it. but i dont think id spend much time trying to notate it. NO.. i wouldnt try and notate it. it will depend on too many variables anyway and probably change depending on the weather. Meaning the song..the tempo.. who playing with.. how i feel. if theres a drum or click track involved hearing the song or tune over that ..but swung.. kinda gotta feel it not visualize or see it.
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@ABitRusty -
Thanks for taking a look, but no - I meant the scrolling sheet music, by Michelle Haughian Violin.
I'm not happy the musescore video only lets someone hear swing, not see it - but I do like the explanation. Listening IS the easiest way to learn these rhythms, there's just a zillion sub-genres... descriptive words are vague.
I don't have trouble keeping in time with someone else (unless it's crazy fast virtuosic) & I can keep a rhythm in my head by hearing it... but I still think notation can be a missed opportunity for communication, if only the 'dots'.
All people interpret things differently - but since people CAN share custom click-tracks for music with uneven rhythm & tempo, then I'd like to learn ways to customize notation to go with it.
This exploration certainly ties in with how I want to play music, eventually make backing tracks & record.
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I don't want to forget to explore other forms of rhythm notation for this & also improvisation.
A different way to visualize rhythm - John Varney (TED Ed)
...spent WAY too much time watching software tutorials tonight (WAY MORE than I've shared here), but it's not often I get the bug to do it - kinda hate pulling the plug.
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I prefer to always start in notation software. It's relatively easy to start in notation software and transfer the MIDI over to a DAW for further editing; I've found it's much more work to go in the opposite direction.
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@AndrewH said
I prefer to always start in notation software. It's relatively easy to start in notation software and transfer the MIDI over to a DAW for further editing; I've found it's much more work to go in the opposite direction.
same here. that process just works.
the other direction is more difficult. if playing a midi keyboard to capture notes.. quantitize settings can get in the way.
One thing thats neat about Notion is the VST instruments. Im sure they all have it.. but 3rd party plugins ...say from spitfire.. can be setup in notion. Alot can be done just inside that.
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@AndrewH & @ABitRusty -
Thank you, both!
I understand your point of view, and appreciate you help me figure out what I want to do.
I probably have this all wrong, but if I use notation software - don't I have to set up parameters like key & time signature, etc... before I even start? And, if there are any 'automatic' features, doesn't ALL THIS force my playing into a neat, tiny box? 🤔... which is probably the definition of 'transcription'. 🥴
I'm not sure how fast I can learn to notate music better, or even if I can learn how to notate phrases well enough. For that reason (accuracy), I think I have a better chance at going from music → notation, than the other way around.
I know that 'automatic' notation software is constantly being worked on, improved - maybe an accurate one is not too far off in the future (I'm such an optimist, sometimes)! I still continue to learn more about notation as I go... not sure that's what I want to focus on.
• I think what's most important to me, is if I'm improvising, or creating, any audio on a midi keyboard or with a violin solo recording - I want an accurate transcription of that midi or wave file, instead of just my manual input of notes.
By starting with a wave file for uneven rhythms, it seems more like thinking of the violin as a human voice (to me), which leads me in the direction of something like jazz soloists.
...maybe I need to be looking at how people transcribe this music (jazz) - transcribing uneven grooves.
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@elcbk said "...don't I have to set up parameters like key & time signature, etc... before I even start?"
yes. in notation you change the key signature by clicking on the menu item that has the A major key sig graphic on it. From there it opens up a window that lets you select whatever key you want.
The tempo is adjusted at the very top of a new sheet. i think it defaults to 120 or 90. just click on it and type a number in.
the type of song.. 3/4, 4/4 etc... is adjusted by clicking on the icon with 4/4 on it.
as for the other stuff..
Just experiment and when you get stuck on something specific.. maybe can help more. Alot of what youre planning has alot of steps involved. You should definately try everything youre saying! youll get it. just takes doing it.
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@ABitRusty -
Thank you, I was sure I had it right - but doesn't help me with phrasing, so I obviously need to look at better examples of notation, before I do anything more in notation software.
In the meantime, I actually learned quite a bit from this video (maybe not what was intended, though) - very entertaining.
"How to Write Music into your DAW" - (improvising straight into DAW) from Guy Michelmore.
Guy's got 113 Tutorials, so I had to take a peek at them... OMG!
He MUST be spying on me! 😳
"How to Learn Software"
...yeah, I knew I had a problem - not being acquainted with using 'key commands' (totally alien to me) is going to kill me. 😖
I have NO idea how I'm going to remember those... really HATE this. At least he didn't sugar-coat anything - really appreciate that.
Guess I better dig out the ol' notebook (real paper) - got a lot of work a head of me, getting tired of this roadblock.
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@elcbk said "..so I obviously need to look at better examples of notation, before I do anything more in notation software. "
why? You have no deadlines or a team depending on you for progress. Its just you having fun and learning. I think alot these type videos are aimed more at someone trying to make a living at it.
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@ABitRusty -
Jeez, learning to use ANY software is NOT my idea of 'fun'. 🤨
It's really more that notation software doesn't teach me different ways to notate, so seems a waste of my time at the moment.
I understand what is considered to be 'basic' swing rhythm notation, but I've seen there can be more to phrasing different swing & syncopation. In post #2, I pointed out just how different notation can be written for the same piece (1st Violin Part of our 2023 Virtual Group Xmas Project vs Michelle Haughian's free pdf). I've seen more than those 2 ways - and not like this is unusual.
I've only just started paying more attention to this (in notation) this past year. It was an eyeopener for me to realize that virtual 'scrolling' sheet music videos can sound okay, but may NOT be what is actually notated for the viewer (e.g., the musescore video in the OP). I don't want software (like musescore) only 'fixing' the sound of my notation - I don't want to add a blanket percentage of 'swing' to the audio, when it (the software) can't show me how to also 'fix' my notation so it indicates that swung rhythm.
The different ways musicians play & notate music is interesting to me. Music is starting to feel less like a foreign language. ...I want to have a better foundation (not necessarily classic) - it's taking me time.
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@ELCBK said
Jeez, learning to use ANY software is NOT my idea of 'fun'. 🤨It's really more that notation software doesn't teach me different ways to notate, so seems a waste of my time at the moment.
I understand what is considered to be 'basic' swing rhythm notation, but I've seen there can be more to phrasing different swing & syncopation. In post #2, I pointed out just how different notation can be written for the same piece (1st Violin Part of our 2023 Virtual Group Xmas Project vs Michelle Haughian's free pdf). I've seen more than those 2 ways - and not like this is unusual.
I've only just started paying more attention to this (in notation) this past year. It was an eyeopener for me to realize that virtual 'scrolling' sheet music videos can sound okay, but may NOT be what is actually notated for the viewer (e.g., the musescore video in the OP). I don't want software (like musescore) only 'fixing' the sound of my notation - I don't want to add a blanket percentage of 'swing' to the audio, when it (the software) can't show me how to also 'fix' my notation so it indicates that swung rhythm.
...I want to have a better foundation (not necessarily classic) - it's taking me time.
if its not fun or you have no purpose to use it, then dont. I only notate to cleanup hand written music or to mqke a better copy of something from lessons. I dont use it as a practice tool.
i will use midi instruments to practice with. a midi keyboard is the easiest input device for that. Plus it adds a human touch. say a piano chord or melody part.
no need to notate. much more freedom by using the keyboard vs trying to notate ideas out.
I've only just started paying more attention to this (in notation) this past year. It was an eyeopener for me to realize that virtual 'scrolling' sheet music videos can sound okay, but may NOT be what is actually notated for the viewer (e.g., the musescore video in
i dont use those much. prefer someones recorded audio over that type of learning when possible. just cant notate out the feeling that someone puts in their playing. you can only suggest it by symbols. otherwise... i could use the tunebooks of kevin burkes albums and play just like him. he even said all the bowing and notes are correct from the transcriber. dangit... I just dont know why i cant sound like him. i have all the info right in front of me from his tune book!! 😉🤪
even when i notate out exactly whats in the book... nope.the computer cant even do it.
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@ABitRusty -
Ah ha!
You DO understand my frustration!
Yeah, that's why I got the Akai mini Play.
AND, why I also have books of trad sheet music I don't want to touch.
But, at least Kevin Burke does have a ton of tutorials & recordings of his playing. Maybe it's time to ask him about all this.
...maybe next Fiddle Hell! 🤗
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