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Thanks for the info. Is a ‘catch’ essentially the same as a ‘hammer-on’?
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to me their description sounds like a hammer on/ pull off kinda thing.. whatever its called I think the name a fiddler would call it it is out there already. or maybe not and its considered being expressive when played on fiddle/violin. not sure where the lines are. when is it an ornament or just being expressive with playing. i think ive heard a bow pulse being put in the ornament category which i never agreed with or understood but so be it..
For discussion... not critique or critisism...thoughts?
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Had never heard of a ‘catch’ from a fiddler perspective. I don’t think it matters too much but whatever it is, I treat it as an ornament rather than a separate note, so not an equal weighting. I think as you said, being expressive is a good description.
I do find it confusing when different terminology is used for the same thing eg bowed triplet and a (Scottish) birl. For example, when you refer to a ‘bow pulse’, am not exactly sure what that is?
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I think it is something that people hear in say a slur 3 .. a leaning into or emphasising the middle note a little more than the other two...in general. once those are stringed together throughout a tune theres a feel or sound it gives.
idk... also maybe how a bellows instrument thats playing faster can have this almost breathing pulsing sound to it. we can do the same sorta thing.. to me not really an ornament.. its just how a person approaches a tune and plays the notes.
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ABitRusty said
to me their description sounds like a hammer on/ pull off kinda thing.. whatever its called I think the name a fiddler would call it it is out there already. or maybe not and its considered being expressive when played on fiddle/violin. not sure where the lines are. when is it an ornament or just being expressive with playing. i think ive heard a bow pulse being put in the ornament category which i never agreed with or understood but so be it..For discussion... not critique or critisism...thoughts?
(Disclaimer: I haven’t watched any of the videos, and I’m posting a one-off comment rather than entering an ongoing discussion. Just stopped by and read @ABitRusty ’s post, and thought the following would add something. As usual, @ABitRusty is right on target. 😊🎻)
The passage below is from an excellent instructional work on Scottish fiddling. Melinda is an accomplished violinist and Scottish fiddler, a college professor of music, a US National Scottish Fiddling Champion, and she has studied extensively in Scotland. She’s a great teacher in person! (Her book is also worth purchasing, and you can feel confident that the information she conveys is solidly researched and vetted. So much better than patching together piecemeal tidbits from across the internet.)
Violinist’s Guide to Scottish Fiddling
by Melinda Crawford Perttu
———————————————
NO 🚫 🎭 DRAMA
———————————————
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I'm seeing a 'catch' as a longer-held (exaggerated) LOW grace note, NOT more than 1 whole step interval away from the principle note - a low acciaccatura, before the beat.
May not seem unusual for anyone used to playing Classical music, because I think there's more of a tendency to play the full value of notes written - but very different if you are used to playing Irish tunes! It's been hard for me to make enough time to sound a 'catch' properly, because I've spent so much time practicing quick & percussive grace notes & rolls (that almost don't matter what fingers I use) - and I keep wanting to fall back into my old habits. 🥴
Maybe important to see a 'catch' is NOT a necessary part of a melody, but is an additional note that helps depict style. 🤔... adds drive to the rhythm, too.
You can have bowing articulation (post#34, The World of Bowing Possibilities! Thread) AND fingered articulation, but (generally) I'd think bowing as 'techniques' - not ornaments. Bowing a 'catch': just make sure the bow is engaged long enough to hear that added note - a thirty-second, or sixteenth note (depending on the tune, tempo AND principle note size).
...I thought a 'hammer on' (generally) can involve larger intervals, no use of the right hand, and since it's about a quick strike of the principle note - almost makes me feel like IT is the ornament. ...so I don't see the resemblance (and I'm not a guitarist).
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May not seem unusual for anyone used to playing Classical music, because I think there's more of a tendency to play the full value of notes written - but very different if you are used to playing Irish tunes! It's been hard for me to make enough time to sound a 'catch' properly, because I've spent so much time practicing quick & percussive grace notes & rolls (that almost don't matter what fingers I use) - and I keep wanting to fall back into my old habits. 🥴
maybe an overly general statement based on individual academic examples. i dont think some of these things are as sophisticated as it seems want to be and are more common across multiple styles..muscians.. than on the surface appear.
alot of what seem like multiple ornaments are just a note using a change of pressure with the finger as its noted... will make a sound like a hammer and slide... buts its basically one finger placement. maybe where youre missing it in irish? idk..
the way alot of stuff is used is different in scottish for sure..it has a different sound... but i think maybe its there ..just mistaken for something else maybe.
EDIT...
..this is an example of a hammer on/ pulloff.. now i.agine delaying just slightly and drawing out the finger removal/placement. The pitch will change and sound like a slide. these aee used ALOT. and you WANT to hear it. its not a percussive thing although can be. thats more of a cut..flick..or whatever. the grace note is a NOTE.. the cut is the percussive thingy... but i know... terminology misuse makes confusing
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😳 Jeez, sometimes you just have to slap me upside the head to get me out of my tunnel vision! THANK YOU!
...too busy watching a doe & her faun in my neighbor's yard. 😁
I know I've seen Hanneke Cassel's video years back - but even she does them more percussive, where you don't really hear the tone of the grace note. Matt explained the distinction between the more percussive grace note and the 'catch' he was talking about for pipers.
Okay, I'll leave it at Hammer On!!!!!!
It's NOT DIFFICULT - just difficult for me to get free of my habits.
...worthy of extra attention.
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@Unfretted -
(Disclaimer: I haven’t watched any of the videos, and I’m posting a one-off comment rather than entering an ongoing discussion. Just stopped by and read @ABitRusty ’s post, and thought the following would add something. As usual, @ABitRusty is right on target.)
This thread is about looking closer at bagpipe qualities/techniques and how they might be mimicked, or interpreted on the fiddle.
You stated you didn't watch the video.
How do you know if ABitRusty is 'right on target', without watching it?
...and you can feel confident that the information she [Melinda Crawford Perttu] conveys is solidly researched and vetted. So much better than patching together piecemeal tidbits from across the internet.
I appreciate you recommend learning from Melinda Crawford Perttu, but there is more than one good Scottish Fiddler to learn from AND MORE than one way to learn.
Melinda's "Midsummer Waltz" is a very nice example. Thank you for recommending her.
I don't feel all trad Scottish music is about Bagpipes - this is just a fun part to explore.
Aren't you the least bit interested in trying to discover how you can perceive something differently, on your own, that might lead to more creativity in playing music on the fiddle?
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@elcbk I was playing around with stuff last week and made this. was going to delete but and this is Really before this topic came up but i think maybe relevent now...or not. but the hammer on i am talking about is this and use alot.. also the autumn child video i did back a while. not sure if it helps or complicates..
i guess why i jumped in was to say... i feel for us on fiddle the hammer on/pull off is whats going on in the catch video and can be lengthened to get the effect he is talking about. just a way to do it. if studying any particular video helps more thats good too and anything that helps do the thing youre wanting is the way.
maybe im being to simplistic about it...idk. but this is my take on the topic.
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@ABitRusty -
That is ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL!!!
Jeez, you really sound great!
If this tune doesn't make everyone a fan of the fiddle - I don't what will. 😊
You play several great kinds of ornaments in this - I hear it & see the 'catch/hammer on' several places.
May seem weird, but I've always felt (by the way Ashokan melody was composed) it blurs the line between what's melody & ornament... could also be because it's a lament. I'm sure I'm not explaining some of what I'm getting out of this right. All the ornaments you play for Ashokan sound & feel like they are necessary. Maybe I've been focusing more on some Cape Breton tunes where this 'catch/hammer on' is used in places I feel the melody might be fine without them - so I've been a bit resistant using them, especially for faster tempo... but I see it's coming from piping tradition.
It's interesting to compare what a piper does for ornaments playing Ashokan, since it started as a fiddle tune, not a piper tune. I've seen the Great Highland bagpipes sound the most different and Uillean sound the closest to fiddle.
On Smallpipes - Caleb Cox.
btw... how'd you mount the camera?
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@ELCBK said
May seem weird, but I've always felt (by the way Ashokan melody was composed) it blurs the line between what's melody & ornament... could be because it's a lament.
I think being able to pick out the core melody and play it helps. ALTHOUGH..
ive learned tunes and ornaments together. That was early and it helps with context and how to fit them in timing wise i guess. This one was just melody a while back and over time played around with it. I listen to a recording Jay and Molly released.. has a union soldier on the front with a drum. This melody can stand alone but so much to practice with it. I intended only audio yo practice guitar to but..
It's interesting to see what a piper does for ornaments playing Ashokan, especially since I'm pretty sure Ungar composed it with fiddle & guitar in mind.
not too far removed from jays recording...sounds like he is trying to do some of what Jay did.
btw... how'd you mount the camera?
a mouth mount 😅🤣
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Rats, I edited too late.
Yes, I should've learned all the Cape Breton Ornaments used at the same time I was learning a melody. They seem to be giving me the most issues & it will definitely help to keep this in mind.
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when i said ive learned tunes and ornaments together...i meant theres been tunes here and there ive done it that way. most were at the beginning in a lesson format. as time has gone by its almost easier NOW to learn the base tune and add the ornaments as i feel them..
i dont know which way is better... i guess a mix of both. along with something to keep your timing honest like a metronome.
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ABitRusty
I'll just jump in real fast on this discussion to say that was a great take on Jays and Mollys Ashoken Farewell.
It had Jay's feel for the song in tempo and ornamentatio.
Very well done,
Thanks for posting that.
Mark
Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.
Albert Sammons
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I do take certain articulation & timing for granted when it comes to grace notes, so I still see the longer duration (more than normal for me) as being the defining feature of the 'catch'.
Looked back at Melinda Crawford Perttu's definition of a 'Hammer-On' (Unfretted's post #85). Even though a gain in grace note duration could come from a ringing tone's residual sound, all I have is collé articulation as a means to use & not all grace notes are ringing tones... and my fiddle's ringing isn't as pronounced as I'd wish.
For my practice of adding a 'catch' - I've been slowing down, starting my grace note slightly earlier & over-emphasizing the duration (still landing on the beat with the primary melody note)... just until I get out of feeling awkward.
I'm glad to know others have been using this ornament!
...nomatter what the name is!
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ELCBK said
I do take certain articulation & timing for granted when it comes to grace notes, so I still see the longer duration (more than normal for me) as being the defining feature of the 'catch'.Looked back at Melinda Crawford Perttu's definition of a 'Hammer-On' (Unfretted's post #85). Even though a gain in grace note duration could come from a ringing tone's residual sound, all I have is collé articulation as a means to use & not all grace notes are ringing tones... and my fiddle's ringing isn't as pronounced as I'd wish.
For my practice of adding a 'catch' - I've been slowing down, starting my grace note slightly earlier & over-emphasizing the duration (still landing on the beat with the primary melody note)... just until I get out of feeling awkward.
I'm glad to know others have been using this ornament!
...nomatter what the name is!
I agree.. if you look at a piece of sheet music.. and see the classic grace note... knowing the context helps ..why so much of this is difficult to capture on paper. I look at them as place holder for ..heres a good place for an ornamemt and one similar to this would fit in nicely.. 🙂 timing is important with them.
I'm glad to know others have been using this ornament!
..nomatter what the name is!
Elcbk i only jumped in because in your post on page 4 you wrote and asked for thoughts. Hope you understand it was about that only.
"..So, I mentioned (Wendy MacIsaac Thread) that I've been focusing on an 'ornament' this year that I found described in piping as a "catch". I've heard Wendy MacIsaac (and Natalie MacMaster) use it quite a bit in their playing. Think I found it best described in this video. Some might consider it a low mordent, but think you can hear the pitch sounded more with a 'catch'. Thoughts on this? "
Unless learning something specific in a class... I honestly dont think about.. use that ornameent...or. use this use that.. it usually just happens. maybe i should plan it out more.
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@ABitRusty -
I WANT yours (and other members) ideas/opinions everywhere on the forum - ALL the time!
LOVE that everyone has a different background & experiences with learning music.
ALWAYS appreciate you take extra steps to help me understand your point of view! 🤗
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Needless to say, been thinking about notation for grace notes 🙄 - specifically to be able to distinguish between 'normal' grace note time vs 'catch' duration.
They aren't supposed to take up time rhythmically (even multiple grace notes!), but it's pretty arbitrary for a normal grace note to be 'fast' and a slashed grace note to be 'faster'.
I believe articulation & slur symbols can be added to grace notes.
...but jeez, if a staccato symbol basically cuts a note value in half, and a tenuto symbol means full value - I don't even know WHAT the 'true' full value of a grace note is (other than it exists between notes).
In the mean time, have to rely on hearing how others interpret grace note value... have to say the Matt Willis videos on 'piper grace note timing' have been very helpful because of some extra visuals he provides.
🤔... think I might've seen what could be considered grace notes in some Scottish tunes on The Session that were written out as regular notes.
Have to get back to PLAYING/PRACTICING NOW!
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Not sure if this adds much, but think have been adding something similar to a pulse, or perhaps a cross between staccato and a pulse?
Been working on Gordon’s Duncan’s pipe tune called ‘Pressed for time’ (https://thesession.org/tunes/2589).
On the sheet music in the link, been playing 2 open ‘As’ both on the up bow (Up/Up) separated by a break or release of pressure (for notes 4/5, and 7/8, 10/11 and 13/14).
When played slowly sounds like the attached.
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