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Scottish Piper Tunes Played on The Fiddle
Mimic the Bagpipes!
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (15 votes) 
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Ford Glass

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December 4, 2022 - 3:32 pm
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Thanks for all the background research. But am still a bit lost, in that am not sure what to do with it/how to process. Music theory is definitely not my strong point.

Attached is the bare bones sheet music, most closely following the second version of Captain Grant from the piper website. It’s the first time using software so it’s a little off in some points (e.g. the opening bar).

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ELCBK
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https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LaxPL1PQgpw/UrJzm7ajiBI/AAAAAAAAGVA/t1AWn_sO4-E/s640/blogger-image--1122819751.jpg

@Ford Glass -

I think you got along absolutely fabulous with the sheet music! 

But... do you want to play it like Alasdair White?  If you do, those are not the notes he plays. 

Alasdair plays Captain Grant's March closer to this: Ab (G string), C, Bb, Bb... C, Eb, F, Eb... Ab (D string), G, F, Bb, Bb... (accents in bold) - this is going to take me more time. 

I'm trying to keep in mind I read "most pipers don't know what Concert Pitch is!"

You are new to the forum & don't know how terribly inept I am with computers & smart phones - not pretty sight to see me struggle!  I spent until the wee hours this morning trying to learn to use the Notion Mobile app & got as far as those 13 notes & don't even know how to share that, right now!  This is a huge step for me, but doesn't help YOU. (lol) 

I've only had a chance to glance at the Flat Notation Software you used - looks GREAT!  It may end up working better for me because I'd much prefer working from my laptop than my phone.  I still have to learn to use PreSonus Studio One, but I'm up to my eyeballs with Grandkids & Xmas prep!   

I'm guilty of playing so much other music lately, that I haven't practiced the whole tune well enough for even a feeble attempt at a video tutorial, but would be easier for me in the long run. 

Sorry... I'm afraid I'm just not much help to you, right now. 

Btw, think it's a weird coincidence I actually know what 'Ford Glass' is!  I have panels of tempered, blue 'Ford Glass' sitting out back in my workshop!  I was going to use them in my entryway, but changed my mind about the color. (lol) 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk said "

You are new to the forum & don't know how terribly inept I am with computers & smart phones - not pretty sight to see me struggle!  I spent until the wee hours this morning trying to learn to use the Notion Mobile app & got as far as those 13 notes & don't even know how to share that, right now!  This is a huge step for me, but doesn't help YOU. (lol) 

I've only had a chance to glance at the Flat Notation Softwareyou used - looks GREAT!  It may end up working better for me because I'd much prefer working from my laptop than my phone.  I still have to learn to use PreSonus Studio One, but I'm up to my eyeballs with Grandkids & Xmas prep!   "

as part of a presonus account/install... a version of notion is included you can install on a laptop or computer.  notion mobile is in addition to that.  

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ELCBK
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https://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/46256-Winter-Is-Coming.jpg

@ABitRusty -

I was secretly hoping you would tell me that (I always have ulterior motives)! 🤣 

THANK YOU! 

I'm still overwhelmed with all the options... and impatient with some of the instructions - overly anxious, I'm my own worse enemy. 🙄  Doesn't help I don't think of music in terms of written notation - at least I'm still determined (and excited) to make all this part of my everyday life. 

Please, at the risk of repeating yourself, KEEP pointing out to me what might seem obvious - cause I haven't quite gotten the memo, yet! 🥴 

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Ford Glass

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December 5, 2022 - 3:43 pm
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@ELCBK Gosh, please don’t be sorry.

When I first saw the video, I wanted to learn the tune. I wasn’t going to be able to learn it by ear, and even with the link to the piper website, I would struggle putting it down an octave without having the notes written out in front of me.

So needed to write the notes an octave down irrespective. Am not going to be playing with a piper anytime soon, so even if it’s not in the correct pitch and it’s not ‘like Alasdair’, am OK with at this point.
Having said that, if you do generate the correct version, would love to see it….

FWIW, I did not find the software I used intuitive at all. Took me forever.

Thanks for all your help.

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ABitRusty
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December 5, 2022 - 5:19 pm
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@elcbk unless youve experimented with the software, there is no reason to expect it to be easy.  Its not something we normally use.  From what Ive found, the version of notion thats included with presonus links up well.  Theres a menu item in notion that says something like...send score to studio one... and inside of studio one theres a menu item on midi tracks that says something like... export track to notion.

you click it...notion opens and there are the notes. 

thats the inly reason im partial to notion.  ANY of the other scoring or notation software will work for making sheet music.   Its whatever you feel most comfortable with. 

I just started with that...it integrated well with presonus...so had no reason to change.

the mobile version allows me to use things ive already made.. plus can download directly from sites like thesession and work with them without booting up a computer.  Its a new feature and product and ia whay i brought it up in another topic.

none of this related to topic but felt like a good place to post since it was mentioned.

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ELCBK
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December 5, 2022 - 7:31 pm
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https://cdn.dribbble.com/users/2477916/screenshots/5714046/santa_dog.png?compress=1&resize=600x450@ABitRusty -

Not sure if I completely understand... are you saying it will generate the notes of a midi?  Or, make a midi from notes you supply?

Going to sound stupid, but I think I'm back to one of my original questions, from a year or so ago.  Is it possible, in Studio One, to isolate a section of YouTube music video audio and make a midi of it? 

Geez, I've had all this going on in my head far too long! 🤯

Btw, I know I saw 'export' in the Notion Mobile app, but I'm guilty of not trying to find out where I could export to. (lol) 

...boy, drove me crazy getting some notes to tie together, accidentally - still haven't figured out how to do it 'on purpose'. 🥴

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ABitRusty
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December 5, 2022 - 7:49 pm
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ELCBK said
https://cdn.dribbble.com/users/2477916/screenshots/5714046/santa_dog.png?compress=1&resize=600x450@ABitRusty -

Not sure if I completely understand... are you saying it will generate the notes of a midi?  Or, make a midi from notes you supply?

Going to sound stupid, but I think I'm back to one of my original questions, from a year or so ago.  Is it possible, in Studio One, to isolate a section of YouTube music video audio and make a midi of it? 

Geez, I've had all this going on in my head far too long! 🤯

Btw, I know I saw 'export' in the Notion Mobile app, but I'm guilty of not trying to find out where I could export to. (lol) 

...boy, drove me crazy getting some notes to tie together, accidentally - still haven't figured out how to do it 'on purpose'. 🥴

  

it will do both

I can send a notion sheet directly to studio one from notion and it takes the notes and makes midi of that right on the timeline.   from there i can assign whatever virtual instrument i want.   from that i can convert to an aufio track and do whatever i normally would with a recording.   eq..reverb..overdriven guitar amp sim.. whatever

 

and yes you can generate a midi track from a youtube track.  you can play a youtube track and record it as audio and use the  same process as when i made a midi track from my fiddle playing in my fiddle cave topic.

and yes from that midi track you can send directly to notion and it will make the dots for you.   sometimes youll need to clean up the timing but it does it.  copyright stuff applies...not sure id want to post a transcription of someones recorded music without permission.   but a handy learning tool if want.

it works best if you can do single instruments.   imagine taking a recording and trying to midi that into a score with a piano, fiddle, drums, guitar.  doesnt work so clean as say a solo fiddle track... or piano.

 

version 5 of studio one i think it is allows editing scores on the timeline.   you can see the notation.

now just because you can doesnt mean you need to or is useful all the time.   just another tool to use if needed.

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ELCBK
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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b5/4c/97/b54c97da19a3e650905cc86ee4e75817.gif

@ABitRusty - 

THANK YOU! 

I understand the ethics of posting the dots of someone's playing.  For learning purposes, think there's a fine line between that and in me playing what I hear someone do and then making dots from it.  I would think along the lines of some other play-along videos I've seen - I believe they make sure it's NOT exactly the same as the artist's version, or only post bare bones. 

I've read several places now about the GHB Chanter playing in A & D Mixolydian, and I may be mistaken, but think I saw something on the Notion Mobile about transposing - I'm sure they probably just mean a different key.  Even so, I've been wondering if just transposing these tunes from Ceol Sean to Mixolydian might work (?) 

I might be able to try it after I get more stuff done. (lol) 

 

3 Cats At Christmas Smiley

Just in case anyone popping in here is wondering what's going on... 

The GHB (Great Highland Bagpipes) play some fabulous music, but the GHB is a Transposing Instrument - so reading from piper sheet music that hasn't been transposed for our string instruments, we won't sound like how they play it! 

 

From post #39 (keep in mind, more microtones might be involved): 

Looking at the Chiff & Fipple website, I think it's best to do a side-by-side comparison for piper's notation (PN) vs what we hear as concert pitch (CP) on Violin, if we see notation that hasn't been transposed - I'm sticking with flats here, these are the GHB pitches to play on violin:

  • Read G3 (PN) = it's A3b (CP) on G string
  • Read A3 (PN) = it's B3b (CP) on G string, maybe a microtone closer to B3
  • Read B3 (PN) = it's C4, middle C (CP) on G string
  • Read C4 (PN) = it's D4 (CP) open D string
  • Read D4 (PN) = it's E4b (CP) on D string
  • Read E4 (PN) = it's F4 (CP) on D string
  • Read F4 (PN) = it's G4 (CP) on D string
  • Read G4 (PN) = it's A4b (CP) on D string
  • Read A4 (PN) = it's B4b (CP) on A string 
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December 5, 2022 - 10:56 pm
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Kesh from G to Gmix

ostrich-chase

In fun...i dunno.  sounds funky.  but probably will depend on each melody and maybe better from tune to tune.

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ELCBK
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@Ford Glass  , @ABitRusty -

AH HA! 

Now, if I'm getting this right, I'm kinda back to my post #33 - similar to where I suggested Alasdair White may just possibly be tuned up a ½ step... 

So, this video leads me to believe Concert Pitch is actually a ½ step up - across the board  - from everything pipers know they play & have notated.  Think I'm going to ask, just to be sure. (lol)

Geez, this is as bad as if you held an apple in your hand and I came along & said, "that's an orange"!

 

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MWTm7LV0AKE/UNXpO1JYyHI/AAAAAAAAXfU/0JlKOBEX9Fo/s1600/Simon

@ABitRusty -

VERY COOL KESH JIG!

So, you reverse-engineered it - taking a tune in Concert Pitch notation and played it in mixolydian? 

I've gone & completely confused myself, now... wondering if mixolydian really helps with translating the piper notation at Ceol Sean into Concert Pitch, or not.

I did not know the Kesh Jig was such a popular piper tune! 😉 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/35/4a/80/354a808f52f0848f8fced83412c38b76--silhouette-design-cutting-files.jpg

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ELCBK
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@Ford Glass , @ABitRusty -

HO!  HO!  HO! 

Got an answer from Doctor Bagpipe (you can read in the comments of the video)! 

When looking at piper tune notation, transcribe everything up a half step/tone for Concert Pitch - 

so we can play like pipers sound! 

 

Simple as THAT?  😲 

*NOT QUITE!  ...see the following posts! (edited) 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e9/2e/5a/e92e5a108243c8610739250a682fadd3.jpg

...at least I would start with that transcription,

if what you hear doesn't match the notation.  

 

I was thinking, a bit perplexed, about why C and F would be transcribed up a whole step/tone, unlike all the others, but then I remembered reading that pipers usually play both, C and F, SHARP (and it's usually not notated) - so transcribing C to D and F to G is actually only a half step/tone up! 

- Emily  

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Ford Glass

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December 8, 2022 - 6:35 am
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@ELCBK, thanks for continuing with this!

In the very first post of this thread, you linked a YouTube video of Alasdair playing 2 piper reels. Solo. Think sounds very much like a piper, especially the first tune.

My ear is not great but THINK he played it at regular fiddle tuning not up half a pitch.

BTW, the first tune can be found at CEOL SEAN as Culdars rant (not Calders rant as spelt in the video).

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ELCBK
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@Ford Glass -

I sure wish you'd found us here a year ago - you've really pushed me to learn quite a bit!  I'll have to go back, edit the previous post & maybe link others here.

THANK YOU!

I had a sneaking suspicion this was too good to be true, because there's always variations from different areas - and different pipes have different tunings!

Thanks for pointing out the alternate name, Culder's Rant (aka. Calder's Rant)!  In my OP video, Alasdair White starts with C# - not 'B' like at Ceol Sean.  He also plays F#.  With the way A is used - pretty sure he is playing in A mixolydian.  So in this case, "piper's usually play both C and F, SHARP (and usually not notated)" holds true (not notated at Ceol Sean) - but otherwise, Alasdair plays like it's already notated in Concert Pitch. 

I believe Prince of Wales is the same situation (C#, F#), but you can find 5 variations at thesession.org - The Prince of Wales Reel

So, guess it's like all other Traditional Folk music - by listening to enough of it, we'll become familiar as to what is commonly played. 

 

I did run across some great info on Bagpipe tuning at https://cityofoaks.org/Bagpipe.....uning.html

The article explains there are 3 complications, the 1st is 'Modes':

Pipe music that notes the actual sharps and flats will have two sharps - F# and C#. This corresponds to the key signature for D major (D Ionian), and in fact bagpipe tunes in D very closely approximate this key - for example, "Amazing Grace." It also corresponds to the key signature for B minor (B Aolian) - for example, "Mist-Covered Mountains."  And finally it corresponds to the key signature for A Mixolydian - for example, "Scotland the Brave."  (That's why the high G in a lot of "A" tunes sounds funny - it is!). You can identify the key in which a tune is written by looking at the most common chords in the tune; additionally, most tunes will end on their key note. (This is not only true of bagpipe music, but of over 99% of Western music generally). 

...there's more explanation, then the 2nd complication is the pipe's key pitch - A is tuned to between 470 - 480 Hz... but it wasn't always tuned this high! 

The 3rd complication talked about, temperament!  ...also linked to more info about bagpipe pitch & scale from the University of Michigan.

Btw, the Peterson Strobe tuner, some of us use, has 3 sweetened bagpipe tunings! 

NSP - Northumbrian Smallpipes in F+ tuning with Just intervals.
GHB - Traditional Great Highland bagpipe tuning.
UIL - Uilleann Pipes Tuning. 
 

🤔... I can't help but wonder what would happen if we used one of those to tune our fiddle with! (lol) 

https://thegraphicsfairy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Retro-Reindeer-Image-GraphicsFairy2.jpg

I hope you have time to pick thru & add to some of the other Scottish music related threads - I'd be very grateful! 

STRATHSPEYS! Thread

A Peek at Scottish Fiddling History Thread

Strathspey Stories - Music, History & Lore Thread

What is a Rant? Thread

Scottish Fiddle Clubs and Societies Thread

Three-Two Hornpipes Thread

Jamie Laval Thread

- Emily

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