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Honorary advisor
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Disclaimer: I play violin, and I am not ashamed!!! LOL!
OK, so now that that's out of the way....
@Mouse Welcome to string playing!!!! OMG! Not only is this typical, it is completely normal!
And yes, I realize my statement is not only true, but it is completely useless... LOL! (As far as helping you...)
So I have been playing (violin) now for about a year and a half and everything you have just described I have been going through. Intonation is not only one of the most difficult things to master in strings it is also the holy grail as far as how to play properly, beautifully, technically correct, and the way to making your instrument sound "right". It is, in fact, what we work on for years and years.
Now, this does not mean to say we will not achieve decent intonation. Actually, it is attainable with practice and determination (like everything else on these instruments) within a reasonable period of time. We will be able to play notes correctly. It will happen and we can absolutely play so that we are hitting those notes well (pretty much) all the time. But it is something we will ALWAYS be working on. Always...
Here is a secret... It becomes less about how well you can hit the note precisely each time, and more about how well you can adjust on the fly as you play because there will be times, even after years of play, that you will hit a note just a little off. The trick is to train your ear well enough to hear it so you can adjust it as you play and bring that note in tune so fast that no one even noticed you were slightly off. That is the mark of good intonation! And that is when you have learned how to control it!
But to address your current concerns... there are some things we can do (myself included) to work on our intonation.
First, I would say let's tune our instrument precisely to begin with... each time we begin playing. We have to start with a perfectly tuned instrument. Otherwise, we are off with intonation to begin with. Our ear needs to be trained with the correct, precise notes, or we will never even hear what good intonation is to begin with.
Second is practice... repetition... over and over and over... We need to master our scales and arpeggios. We need to hear every note correctly every time. Over and over. We must hear only correct intonation and feel where each finger plays those notes.... over and over again... until it becomes second nature. In other words, muscle memory connecting with proper notes.
I know you already said you do it over and over... I know you have been working on it. Me too. We have been working on this... we will continue working on this.. we will not stop working on this... This is our lot in life. This is string playing. This is why not everyone plays these instruments. DO NOT give up.... and neither will I.
Also, my teacher tells me exactly the same thing yours tells you. I mean exactly! Down to "Thinking the note!". In fact, I was so pleased when I read your comment that your teacher tells you this! I am not the only one! And it is a valid concept. Think the note. It does work!
Why are we so inconsistent? Because we are human. We are playing an instrument that requires us to place our fingers in precise locations with no visual queues or aids on the fingerboard. We have to rely on the memory of our muscles which takes time to ingrain into our motions and the electrical impulses of our brains and match that to what we hear. Of course it will start out as inconsistent and clumsy fumbling with trying to learn, re-learn... then start again... repeat... try, try, try... it is how we play the instrument. Do not be discouraged. Eventually, it will all click.
Faster playing will only come with this repetitive, slow learning... We must first learn this slow before we can play it fast. I am still really playing eighth notes. And my tempo has only begun to speed up after a year and a half. It is just how it goes, Cid.
No tricks... No secrets. Practice, repeat, over and over again. And believe me... I am telling myself this every bit as much as anyone else!
- Pete -
Regulars
Intonation is a constant struggle for everyone.
Even though I rely on sight-reading ability most of the time (I get too much orchestra music on too short a time frame to practice everything slowly) I still at least look through my parts, spot potentially tricky shifts, and practice them slowly. I'll practice the shift itself, possibly with the notes leading into it, often playing the notes as even quarter notes at quarter note = 40 or even slower. After I can nail the shift consistently at that tempo, then I start adding in the rhythm and gradually accelerating to performance tempo.
And even then, everyone makes occasional mistakes. In an instructional video on shifting high up the fingerboard, Nathan Cole gives away the professional string player's "dirty little secret": if you're slightly off you can conceal the error with vibrato. Of course, you have to land close enough to make it convincing; if you're too far off, you're not going to be able to hide it.
Regulars
cid said
I actually have an easier time with intonation on my violin and viola.
This is your solution then. JK.
Jokes aside, arpeggios and scales are golden when it comes to intonation. I'm the same as you, usually I'm pretty close, but very inconsistent when it comes to intonation. Some days I don't even bother because no matter what I do I can't get close to what's supposed to sound like. My suggestion is to listen to a lot of recordings of the piece you're working on. If you're able to, try to play along with a recording as well. Another thing that I find useful is to hum or to have the tune in your head while playing.
'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.
Regulars
@Mouse said ....I got my cello out of its case and played the scale we are working on right now over and over, played my new piece, and I also did the sonata we just finished up. It felt good and my intonation was much better. I want to do it right now, but it is 10:49 pm. There is quite a bit of land between us and the neighbors, but with windows open this time of year, I am sure they would hear me and think there was a sick cow in their yard..
Well the important thing is to not let it discourage you and stay..ahem..mootavated.
Sorry.. couldn't help.
I always enjoy your post. It's so funny how even with a different instrument we have the same struggles. I think its probably harder for you with the style of music youre playing. At least with old time its possible, in some sections of a tune, to slide up to the correct note and it sounds planned. This can help to get your hand in right spot. It seems like with classical music a person would need to be precise the whole time. Hang in there..sounds like you're enjoying the cello even though some things youre working on to make consistent.
Regulars
I am not suggesting that anyone should play a piece intending to hide inaccuracies with vibrato. But intonation errors happen, even to the best. In order to be consistently close enough to hide your errors with vibrato in performance situations, you need to be nailing the note quite consistently when practicing. Slow practice of the tricky intervals is how you get it.
Regulars
I am always studying a slow piece and a fast piece, but slow scales are surprisingly good for intonation training.
My experience is that on a good day I can often hit a note so that all I need to correct the intonation is a slight roll on the finger tip towards me or away from me. That roll can be combined with vibrato: worse can't. On the whole, the advice to use vibrato only when your intonation is perfect is the right advice.
AndrewH: intonation errors happen, even to the best.
I had a cheap CD of Pag 1, and the violinist hit the first D of the performance a quartertone flat. They should have stopped the take there and redone it. I binned the CD.
Andrew
Regulars
cid said
At almost 65, I keep seeing this clock running out on how long my fingers will be able to do it
Yep. I'm 59, and I'm the same. I already have some arthritis in my left foot and left hand: my mother has it bad, and my mother and my aunt have both had carpal tunnel operations. It's a race against time. My teacher now realises this and lets me call the shots.
I do not know the names of classical pieces, might know what it sounds like and might not.
Sorry about the thread drift.
Pag 1 is Paganini's first violin concerto. My favourite piece of vinyl in the 70s was Maurice Hasson playing Pag 1 and Prok 2. But I played the Prokofiev more often than the Paganini. That vinyl was still available until a couple of years ago, but it has never been made into a CD.
The note I'm talking about occurs at 3.51 in this Youtube video. You wait 3 minutes 45 seconds for an opening phrase and it ends on a note that's a quartertone flat. You see the problem (on the CD, not on this performance).
Curious that it says in D. I haven't checked the pitch, but the orchestra plays in Eb and the violin plays in D with his strings tuned a semitone sharp, in case anyone has perfect pitch and can't work it out.
Andrew
Advanced member
Regulars
Fiddlerman said
AndrewH said
I am not suggesting that anyone should play a piece intending to hide inaccuracies with vibrato. But intonation errors happen, even to the best. In order to be consistently close enough to hide your errors with vibrato in performance situations, you need to be nailing the note quite consistently when practicing. Slow practice of the tricky intervals is how you get it.
Actually, to play in tune without vibrato is WAY more difficult than with.
I am doing, or have done, some "Tune a Week" videos and I try to always play the tune without vibrato for beginners, and I must say, it's ridiculously difficult to be accurate without vibrato. Obviously you have a greater chance of hitting the right pitch when you go up and down constantly and it's not as noticeable to the listener as when you sit solidly on one note.
That being said, it's all relative. Intonation is relative also. There is no-one who does not play out of tune. It's more a question of what is acceptable and to whom it is acceptable to.
As many have said, slow practice with concentrated focus on each and every note for intonation is very helpful. Use of scales for this purpose is also fantastic. Just don't loose the focus. More focus is necessary when developing your hand and finger patterns but one must always keep intonation in mind. The most difficult thing to teach is to listen.... Not only for intonation but for everything. Listen, listen and listen.
We're in total agreement. I think you may have misunderstood my post. What I meant was that, because performance anxiety tends to produce inconsistency, you have to be nailing all the notes without vibrato in the practice room in order to be consistently close enough to hide the errors in vibrato while performing.
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