FORUM

Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Self learning problem
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
adrian
Member
Members
August 12, 2019 - 2:01 pm
Member Since: August 12, 2019
Forum Posts: 3
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hello,

 

I have decided to start learning violin but much to my dismay there are zero teachers within a reasonable drive from me 🙁 so I am stuck trying to figure everything out for myself. 

 

I have no music experience so I am also having to learn music theory from scratch too.

At the moment I have two main issues - the first is understanding which note is which. I hvae read about the bass and treble clefs and middle c and kinda understand semitones but I still dont get how your supposed to know which "A" (for example) on the fret board your meant to use when you see a A on the music sheet.   

 

For example, this is the first piece Iv tried to play - https://violinsheetmusic.org/t.....ing-grace/

 

At first I was trying to use the B on the A string until I realized Im supposed to be using the G string. - What is thee on the paper that tells you which is which?  

Also on that music sheet the G key has a sharp next to it which I understand means your supposed to play all the notes sharp? but I dont really know what that means 🙁

 

The other issue I have is with the sound of the G string when trying to get C. It sounds fine on G A B but when i get to C it sounds really dull and not right at all. Im not sure if im doing something wrong but if i use the csharp on the a string at that point it sounds better but then the rest of it only sounds ok if i then use the B on a string rather than the one on the G string that I had been using.

 

would love some clarification

Avatar
damfino
my own little world
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 2:22 pm
Member Since: July 23, 2015
Forum Posts: 1944
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would suggest, to ease your current frustration, to get yourself a book like Essential Elements to help you learn the beginning basics. Also check out youtube tutorials like The Online Piano & Violin Tutor. https://www.youtube.com/user/t.....pianotutor She will run you through many of the beginning basics. Fiddlerman also has a lot of tutorials on here.

Quick glance at the sheet music you shared, unless there are other pages, there aren't any G string notes, so that it why I suggest being easy on yourself and taking it slow. It seems like you are throwing yourself into the deep end, which is only going to discourage and frustrate you.

Also, don't rule out skype lessons. They can be very helpful as well.

☆•*¨*•¸¸¸.•*¨*•☆•*¨*•¸¸¸.•*¨*•☆•*¨*•.¸¸¸.•*¨*•☆
World's Okayest Fiddler
☆•*¨*•.¸¸¸.•*¨* •☆•*¨*¨*•¸¸¸.•*¨*•☆

Avatar
Leaviathan
Advanced member
Members
August 12, 2019 - 2:33 pm
Member Since: May 18, 2019
Forum Posts: 91
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It's all based on middle C, which is one line below the bottom line on the G clef. The G string on your violin is G3 which is the first G that's below middle C. Someone correct me if I'm wrong 🙂

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 2:43 pm
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The G key means you play only the F sharp, the rest of the notes are natural. Tip on how to figure out what notes will be sharp or flat. The sharp/flat signs lay on the same space/line as the note that's sharp or flat. If there's no sign, that means it's C, which means all natural notes. 

I suggest you look under the learning tool tab on this site. Most useful at this point would be "Where do I start" and the fingering chart. Check out the tutorials as well, they are really useful to get you started. 

Hope this is helpful. Just ask if you got any questions. Welcome onboard amuse

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 3:38 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 456
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

adrian said 

@adrian

Welcome to the forum!!

Hello,
I have decided to start learning violin but much to my dismay there are zero teachers within a reasonable drive from me 🙁 so I am stuck trying to figure everything out for myself. 

I have no music experience so I am also having to learn music theory from scratch too.

At the moment I have two main issues - the first is understanding which note is which. I hvae read about the bass and treble clefs and middle c and kinda understand semitones but I still dont get how your supposed to know which "A" (for example) on the fret board your meant to use when you see a A on the music sheet.   

Ok... Lots of things to go over here... but I will try to be brief.  A full explanation on theory and how each of these things work and why would take up a long discussion post, and besides, it has all been written before, as others have noted... there are volumes of books available and you can go into as much detail as you like on music theory... There is really no limit to your study of theory.

 

For example, this is the first piece Iv tried to play - https://violinsheetmusic.org/t.....ing-grace/

At first I was trying to use the B on the A string until I realized Im supposed to be using the G string. - What is thee on the paper that tells you which is which?  

Amazing Grace is a simple tune, however I would recommend if you have never played a string instrument before, and have no music experience, even this may be more complex than you want.

Also on that music sheet the G key has a sharp next to it which I understand means your supposed to play all the notes sharp? but I dont really know what that means 🙁

You are referring to the Key Signature.  There are many long explanations about how key signatures work.  The simplest way to explain is this... the key signature indicates what key you are playing in.  In this case, the song you have as your example is written in the key of G Major.  This key has one sharp, F Sharp.  All notes written on the staff where you play F should be played sharp in this key, unless otherwise noted.  Also, if you look at the structure of the major scales, this will make a little more sense to you, as the G Major scale has all F notes played as sharp.

The other issue I have is with the sound of the G string when trying to get C. It sounds fine on G A B but when i get to C it sounds really dull and not right at all. Im not sure if im doing something wrong but if i use the csharp on the a string at that point it sounds better but then the rest of it only sounds ok if i then use the B on a string rather than the one on the G string that I had been using.

would love some clarification

As you have been experiencing, the G string is farthest from your wrist, and as a new string player, this string is sometimes difficult to reach, just in terms of mechanics.  You will need to pay close attention to how your left arm, elbow, and wrist are positioned in order to reach and properly play the notes on this string.  Be sure that your fingers are in a curved position on the fingerboard and play only on the tips of the fingers.  Your fingers should be in this position for each string you play on.  This will be uncomfortable at first.  That is normal and will take time to get used to.  The reason your C is not sounding quite right is probably because of a few things... your wrist may not be in the correct position and your finger, in this case your third finger on that string, may not be in the correct position either.  

Videos online will help to show you how to properly hold the violin and position your arm, hand and keep your posture correct.  I would also recommend trying to find a friend or teacher.. possibly try your local school and see if there is a music department with someone who can help.  It is very difficult to begin learning violin with no help other than a book and online videos, but it is possible.  

Just be aware that as you begin, the possibility of picking up early bad habits can be a problem.  If you are serious about continuing violin, you will want to try to find someone that can at least get you past some of the beginner hurdles.

Also, if you are willing, you can create your own videos of yourself playing and post them here on Fiddlerman.com.  We can help give tips and possible help you avoid problems develop with your posture.

Welcome!  I hope this helps!

- Pete -

Avatar
adrian
Member
Members
August 12, 2019 - 4:14 pm
Member Since: August 12, 2019
Forum Posts: 3
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

thanks for the replies.

 

I have read several different beginner tutorials and watched numerous videos. I am aware that there is a high chance that without a teach I could be teaching myself bad habits but believe me when I say I have searched for a teacher - i live in a back of beyond little town where the only thing anyone plays is guitar.

 

While all the tutorials explain the staves and keys, none of them explain it in a way that coveres all the confusion.

 

"The G key means you play only the F sharp, the rest of the notes are natural"

That piece of music has no F sharps in it, is the sharp symbol by the cleff redundant?

 

For example, they describe the g key as meaning that the second line from the bottom so on a 5 line staff it goes E G B D F on each line bottom to top. But none of the guides explain WHICH G. Until now Id assume it meant the open g string but i guess not.

 

Having watched enough vids and played around enough to feel confident holding the bow, violin and practiced just going up and down the strings with the bow (im quite comfortable using the g string with all 4 fingers) I didnt really know what else to do - I chose amazing graze because it was the most basic song I could find sheet music for. 

 

I think the big thing im still really stuck on is how to know which note is which - iv read lots of guides that explain notes but skip over this. 🙁

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 4:21 pm
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

adrian said 
"The G key means you play only the F sharp, the rest of the notes are natural"

That piece of music has no F sharps in it, is the sharp symbol by the cleff redundant?

  

No, the Key signature tells you that all Fs in the tune will be played as F#. The key signature makes it easier to read and compose music, because you don't have to write sharp or flat for every note that will be played that way. It's a system created so the staff doesn't get cluttered. 

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 4:50 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 456
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

adrian said
thanks for the replies.

You're Welcome!

I have read several different beginner tutorials and watched numerous videos. I am aware that there is a high chance that without a teach I could be teaching myself bad habits but believe me when I say I have searched for a teacher - i live in a back of beyond little town where the only thing anyone plays is guitar.

So it sounds like you do have some materials, but be aware, beginning tutorials may not go in-depth into music theory.  As I mentioned, it is a large amount of material that a beginner may be overwhelmed with.  There are entire college courses just dedicated to this.  

I understand that you may have difficulty locating a violin teacher.  I get that.  And you can certainly find good online help with learning violin.  A great resource is Violin Lab.  They offer some free help, but their lesson program is a paid program.  But I have looked at what they offer and it is great quality for online self-teaching.

While all the tutorials explain the staves and keys, none of them explain it in a way that coveres all the confusion.

It is a large topic.  I can offer you some explanations, but it is likely that I may not cover everything or clear up ALL the confusion.

Again, a search online can be helpful, and we can help here with specific questions about music theory.

"The G key means you play only the F sharp, the rest of the notes are natural"

That piece of music has no F sharps in it, is the sharp symbol by the cleff redundant?

The key of G refers to the G major scale, in which there is only one sharp, F sharp.  When you play in the key of G major any of the notes on F are played sharp unless otherwise noted.  I do not know a more clear way to explain this.  Sorry.

For example, they describe the g key as meaning that the second line from the bottom so on a 5 line staff it goes E G B D F on each line bottom to top. But none of the guides explain WHICH G. Until now Id assume it meant the open g string but i guess not.

As you may have guessed, the violin has a specific range of notes that can be played... from open G to something astronomically high... the 7C, which you will not see in your music for quite a while.  

So on the staff the lowest note, G is the open G because it is the lowest string (tuned to standard concert tuning).  On the staff, it is written as the 3rd space down, just under the second ledger line below the E on the staff.  If you see this written in your music, play the open G... go up one octave to the next G which is on the D string, 3rd finger.  One more octave is on the E string, 2nd finger.  

I think the big thing im still really stuck on is how to know which note is which - iv read lots of guides that explain notes but skip over this. 🙁

For all other notes, in the first position, search google for a image of a violin fingering chart.  This will display all the notes and their position on the fingerboard, and many also tell you which fingers to use to play these.

I hope this helps.  Feel free to ask any questions but just be aware that you will get a more clear response with specific questions about theory.  Asking for answers to broad questions are more difficult to address.

- Pete -

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 4:51 pm
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maybe this will help. Made a simple fingering notation. The letters are the strings, while the numbers are what finger to use. Zero means a open string. For the open string you can also use a forth finger, but for now it's fine to just use a open string. amazinggracefingering.png

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
August 12, 2019 - 4:57 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14787
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Interesting way of notating a piece of music HP.
Can you read sheet music?

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 5:02 pm
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Fiddlerman Yes, I can read music well. 

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Avatar
adrian
Member
Members
August 12, 2019 - 5:42 pm
Member Since: August 12, 2019
Forum Posts: 3
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

ok, one last basic question and ill move on from there.

 

hers a pic of the staff in G key

How-To-Read-Sheet-Music-Images.pngImage Enlarger

 

is that G an open G or 3rd position on the D string?

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 5:49 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 456
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

That G is played on the D string, 3rd finger.

Open G is written below that lowest E on the staff in your picture.. it is located on the 3rd space below it.

- Pete -

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 5:52 pm
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

adrian said
ok, one last basic question and ill move on from there.

 

hers a pic of the staff in G key

is that G an open G or 3rd position on the D string?

  

That's not the G key, that's the G clef. This is what the notes would be in a C major scale. But the G you're referring to is played on the D string. This is the G major key, with noted open strings.G-major.pngImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Avatar
Pete_Violin
Utah
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 6:13 pm
Member Since: March 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 456
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@HP 

I tried not to go into too much, I did not want to further confuse the issue.  This is a nice example though.  Nice notation on the open strings.  I hope this clears things up better.

Awesome job!

- Pete -

Avatar
cid
August 12, 2019 - 8:33 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 1462
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Essential Elements Strings for Violin. Book 1 is a great place to start, if mike me, seeing written material is a big help. It will guide you through string by string.

They call me, “Mellow Cello” 

Avatar
sf_bev
Member
Members
August 12, 2019 - 10:20 pm
Member Since: July 13, 2019
Forum Posts: 49
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I agree with @damfino and @cid that Essential Elements for Violin is a good place to start.  I working my way through it now.  It's organized in such a way that there's virtually no confusion about which string a given note is to be played on.

I believe Fiddlerman has also recommended this course.

A couple things I like about it:

1)  It starts out in 1 key, on 2 strings, so you learn one fingering and can use that same fingering on a number of songs.

2)  It's pretty careful to start you out playing on only one string at a time, so you don't have to play across multiple strings at first (which is harder).

3)  It introduces you to songs pretty quickly, even though it keeps things so simple.

As I'm working my way through it, each time something new is introduced, I find everything I've learned breaks down, and I go back to make sure I still have my basics.

I've discovered that actually hitting notes is ridiculously difficult, as is the bow hold.  So even though the book seems simple and not very thick, it will be keeping me busy for months.

I've supplemented the material in the book by downloading some music from Fiddlerman, being careful to stay on the strings I've practiced and in the key I've been practicing.

So far, I feel like I've been making progress without getting too confused.

But, learning violin is slow going.  

I also bought Violin for Dummies, and it is introducing me to more music theory and going much much faster because it's tryin to cover a lot of ground.

Best of luck.  

Avatar
cid
August 12, 2019 - 10:53 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 1462
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

And the notes are marched to the music you look at. You learn to read the notes and associate them to the violin.

A trick I learned in school. The notes on the staff (the five lines on sheet music). You will be looking at treble clef staff notes. So here is a trick to help remember which notes are on which line when looking at the music. I don’t know complicated music theory, but I remember this from school decades ago.

The spaces read as follows:

F A C E. First space is F, second space is A, third space is C, upper space is E.

The notes on the lines can be remembered by:

Every Good Boy Does Fine 

First line is E, second line is G. Third line is B, next line is the D, and the top line is F.

There are notes above and below the lines, but the notes go consecutively up from the first line (F) and consecutively down from the bottom line (E).

That means the first note on space on top of that F on the top line would be a G.

The note on that first note under the bottom line (E) would be a D.

I hope that made sense. FACE (space notes) and Every Good Boy Does Fine (line notes). You will know what I mean when you start learning the notes, but when you start learning, this will help you remember what you learned because it will make more sense.

Seriously, though, Essential Elements for Strings book 1 is an excellent place to start. I believe Fiddlershop has it at a very good price.

They call me, “Mellow Cello” 

Avatar
GregW
Members

Regulars
August 12, 2019 - 11:50 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 491
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

It might have been said already but maybe print off the sheet music and pencil the name of the note above each note on the page.  Before you play each note say the name of that note THEN play it.  Something a guitar teacher said to do.  Its tedious and is just a memorization thing and doesn't come out musical but it helps cement the notes while your learning to read music and play.  Well it helped me on guitar so might be of use here. 

Avatar
HP
Trondheim, Norway
Members

Regulars
August 13, 2019 - 3:34 am
Member Since: October 11, 2012
Forum Posts: 395
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

pchoppin said
@HP 

I tried not to go into too much, I did not want to further confuse the issue.  This is a nice example though.  Nice notation on the open strings.  I hope this clears things up better.

Awesome job!

  

Thank you. I try to make it as simple as possible. Music theory is quite dense subject. I've gone through several courses on music theory and composing, but still only scratch the surface of the theory. Frankly, I don't think most musicians will find a good use for a majority of the theory. Composers, definitely, for every day musicians, not so much. For most musicians is more than good enough to be able to tell what the different notes are, rhythm, difference between a half step and a whole step and to identify what key signature a tune is played in. 

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 424
Currently Online: AndrewH, cid
80
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming HeadCheese, Mad_Wed, Andrew, Prudence, Lenicus, ButteryStuffs, kit, makinnoise, wisco kid, Nathalie, marta, AmandaKulp, klezmerkat
Top Posters:
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2678
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Kevin M.: 1971
damfino: 1944
cdennyb: 1814
TerryT: 1726
Ferret: 1575
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 27056
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 55
Topics: 8162
Posts: 101498
Newest Members:
Peter C, janetcolletti, caseclosed, Sheri, Hemen1998, OCB
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 14787, KindaScratchy: 1741, coolpinkone: 4174, BillyG: 3081, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, cid: 1462