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I need help solving a bow stroke mystery!
Maybe you Cello players might recognize this mysterious bowing phenomena.
This all began because I'd been feeling good about correcting my basic bow hold and gaining better control (while staying relaxed) - it's pretty natural now, but there have been several tunes where my hand demanded changes...
I'm not ready for every type of bow stroke, yet, but I like to understand what possibilities are/will be available to me.
So, I revisited all of the great Fiddlerman Bowing videos (beginner - advanced), then headed out online to some favorite sites.
Found an amazing William Fitzpatrick video I hadn't seen where he talks about "a hundred different bow holds" and when to use different fingers! Plus much more.
"Creating and Using Bow Strokes"
Now, I'm still absorbing all this info, tried a few things... but there's one bowing technique/effect (maybe a multiple or more complex one) that still mystifies me.
Knowing why we want to be able to bow closer to the bridge or closer to the fingerboard is one thing, but I've seen some extremes - strange angled/slide or sweep across the strings, expressive stuff that just captivates me. I want to understand it all!
Admittedly, I've noticed this technique used more on the Cello.
- Leo Sanders playing "Stålvalsen" with Mia/Mikael Marin (5th post, The Vals - Nordic genre), starting at 2:24 thru 2:54. https://fiddlerman.com/forum/n.....n-it-be/
- Shannon Hayden playing Cello, "Noel Nouvelet" (4th post, Christmas Project thread). https://fiddlerman.com/forum/f.....bration/
- Jacob Fowler playing Cello, "Mongolian Bowl Dance" (1st post, "Can Violin Sound Like Erhu" thread). https://fiddlerman.com/forum/p.....n-a-cello/
The only amazing violin performance I've recently run across, that clearly shows this angled/slide technique along with bowing half way up the fingerboard, is Maria Kaneko Millar's "Sakura" (3rd post, "Can Violin Sound Like Erhu or Kokyu?" thread).
https://fiddlerman.com/forum/p.....n-a-cello/
Can anyone help me with this "Mystery" bow stroke?
Does anyone know the correct term, any tips or helpful insight into using this angled/sweep across the strings, special effect on the strings?
- Emily
Btw, the angled/slide is an audible sound effect, not just a pathway to get the bow from one area to another.
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I found another odd bowing technique!
Might be a version of the one I saw/heard in the 1st post?
Figured better here than my Welsh thread.
Angharad (Violin & Viola) uses her bow for some special effects and plays several Welsh tunes with her Mother, Delyth (Harp).
It's at the beginning of the 2nd tune (I can't pronounce it).
Actually starts at 3:30 minutes.
@ABitRusty - you might really enjoy the very 1st tune!
Nice effect, anyway!
- Emily
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sounds like flautando..from some of my spitfire audio libraries.
oh and yes i liked that 1st tune.
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@ABitRusty -
"Flautando" lead me to "Sul Tasto"!
Conflicting info: some say they are basically the same,
others say Flautando and Sul Tasto are different, but both using fast bow speed I didn't see in my examples!
I'm thinking I'm seeing a combination in the examples of my 1st and 2nd posts!
But even MORE ADVANCED - also adding a progression of the bow up and down the strings (not just back and forth).
In Angharad's performance, she actually did a circular motion (VERY COOL).
Think I found the slower speed AND the position movement I saw in all the Cello and Violin players!
So, is Sul Tasto the elusive technique?
FIDDLERMAN?
- Emily
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Flautando and sul tasto are definitely not the same, and I haven't ever heard anyone say they are basically the same. Sul tasto is usually part of the flautando technique.
Sul tasto just means playing over the fingerboard. Flautando is playing with a very light, fast bow stroke, hair tilted to reduce contact area, easiest (and most commonly done) on or near the fingerboard but possible anywhere on the string.
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@AndrewH -
Thank you, that's why I like to check with more sources.
None of my video examples are using a fast bow stroke, though - assuming there are some liberties with each technique?
So, is Sul Tasto the technique Angharad used in the Welsh Medley (DnA) video (Post No.2)? Angharad also uses Col Legno.
Btw, the site with the video that said "Flautando, also known as Sul Tasto", authored "Art of String Teaching" so I thought worth mentioning albeit confusing.
...love Simon's Cat.
- Emily
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The key to flautando is super-light bow pressure and a tilted bow. I wouldn't call it a super fast bow stroke, but to get a decent sound you probably need a faster bow stroke than you would otherwise use. And it is most commonly played sul tasto (on the fingerboard) in the absence of other instructions.
However, flautando is not always sul tasto -- I've seen the direction "flautando sul pont." in an orchestra part, which means flautando near the bridge.
And sul tasto does not imply flautando at all. If I see "sul tasto" without further instructions, I'll play with normal bow weight and speed over the fingerboard. Playing over the fingerboard produces a slightly muted, "fuzzy" sound.
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What I see in the video is flautando, but note that not every bow stroke is over the fingerboard.
The thing about flautando is that it isn't very precisely described as a technique at all; the term refers to the effect you get, not how you get it. Here's an example of a cellist playing flautando with a similar circular bow stroke, and the video description defines flautando as involving circular movements. But I've never been asked to play that way in an orchestra; normally when I see the "flautando" direction I would play over the fingerboard unless otherwise specified. The main thing to remember should be: flautando is an effect, sul tasto is a specific technical instruction.
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@AndrewH -
WOW!
I can't believe you found that video!
I thought I watched quite a few videos on Flautando, and NONE of them were like this!
Really appreciate your help clearing this up for me, Andrew - I been trying to find out about this technique for a while, so now I understand Flautando and Sul Tasto!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
- Emily
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give it time..it becomes relevent to topic. 4:00 is hilarious. he has some violinist and cello peeps playing examples
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AndrewH said
....................
Flautando is exactly as the description sounds. A floating light sound as Andrew spoke of in the previous (Post 7) post.
The above video does not ,in my over 40 years of professional experience opinion, show flautando.
Very light bowing that doesn't really pull the string enough to get a solid sound is what I would describe as Flautando. It might be the airy sound that prompted the person from the video to describe it as such.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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When I started this thread I was so excited to find all these bowing techniques.
Just kind of bummed it's taken me all this time just to get to where I can finally start to focus/choose to play closer to the fingerboard or closer to the bridge! 😒
- Emily
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Figured I should include info on bowing for Oldtime Fiddling!
Here Craig Judelman talks about bow holds and bowing techniques used in Oldtime Fiddling (Oldtime Central).
Here's a lesson from Rachel Eddy, about how to use a pulse we can get within a bow stroke. (Ethan Jones)
Fiddle Lesson: Rachel Eddy Teaches Bow Pulsation
Also, want to link all the info from the "Bowing For Dynamics" thread, here.
- Emily
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I was thinking about all the bowing techniques/strokes/patterns involved with Oldtime and Bluegrass Fiddle music.
If you are interested in these styles of music, has anyone checked out the 'Peghead Nation' Channel on YouTube?
Peghead offers courses on 'Roots' music; Bluegrass, Oldtime, Irish, Blues, and Swing Jazz. Brittany Haas teaches even a few more styles of Fiddle music!
Video About Learning Roots Music at Peghead Nation
Peghead Fiddle Courses: Details & Sample Lessons
...amazing, what music we can create because of our bows!
- Emily
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@elcbk somewhere on the forum ive talked about peghead nation. I really liked the Chad Manning courses. Pretty flexible with how they do things. You can drop and add courses without much trouble. Sorta like the fiddle hell stuff but in more bite sized lessons. if your disciplined about following the program, theres alot of info there. Bruce Molsky has a bunch of tunes in cross tuning. I had no problems with billing or canceling/adding stuff. well run site but Im not subscribed any more.
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@ABitRusty -
Thanks, they appear to be very thorough with some great pointers.
I'm even eyeballing the banjo lessons. (lol)
Hope Fiddlers watch the sample fiddle lessons.
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Almost the middle of October & Halloween is closing in!
Maybe time to try some Flautando or Artificial Harmonics?
...hint, hint!
- Emily
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Or maybe sul ponticello? I feel like that gets used a lot in the kind of music that I've played in Halloween concerts.
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@AndrewH -
Great idea, except I think I'm already getting the sound of sul ponticello while playing flautando - maybe even some artificial harmonics.
Think I've just discovered 3 in 1! 🤣
Oh well, if I can't have fun around Halloween...
- Emily
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When talking about more advanced bowing techniques, I had expected this thread to cover more refinement than it has.
Thanks to a recent post by Mouse (about cello), I'm revisiting this thread and continuing my search for a better understanding of bowing.
Bow grip, to me, is extremely important! This past year I found a way to keep my thumb from slipping through the bow without squeezing anymore (which had been a terrible problem) - and that made a HUGE impact on how I now handle my bow!
1.) I still haven't spent time learning to control what my different fingers can do to change my grip (my 1st post here). Some good stuff is going on - I'm just not aware of what that is! 🤪
2.) Thought it's time to try to become more aware of exactly when, where and how much I tilt the bow.
3.) I'm also aware that I treat each of my 5 strings differently when bowing, but not really clear on exactly what it is I'm actually doing when it feels 'right' on each string. I'd like to make sure I understand so I can be more in control of what I'm bowing and able to improve.
So, I have MUCH more to explore!
Zlata addresses my tilting the bow interest in this video.
Here's a very interesting video from ARCUS Müsing (ARCUS bows, Germany) - how our bows work with our strings to get the beautiful tone from our violin, viola or cello!
Now, this video is remarkable because it talks about how strings move when they vibrate/string overtones, how the bow is not totally engaging with the string 100% of the time and how the strings actually move in the opposite way when up-bowing vs. down-bowing!
It explains that when you change bowing direction, the string must stop to change - but we hear continued sound from instrument resonance.
I believe I've experienced some issues when I haven't allowed the string to settle before changing bowing direction - or, at least I haven't changed direction of my bowing in a way that helps the string change.
Been wondering if this isn't what's sometimes mistaken as a 'wolf tone'?
This video also explains an important feature of violins - each has a unique resonance profile, but each bow also has it's own, unique, resonance profile.
Also info about bridge function, rosin function and all about damping (huge difference between lower & higher strings)!
Gets pretty interesting starting at 21:24 - the force between the bow, the string and how it changes with time.
I like how Zlata explains that different sounding points, on different strings... sound different! (lol)
What is really interesting, is that we should consider changing our contact points, when playing in higher positions!
Exploring bowing is a great way to start off the New Year!
- Emily
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