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Bowing for Dynamics
How many factors?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (4 votes) 
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ELCBK
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March 30, 2021 - 2:57 pm
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I really struggle with dynamics and the problem of both my hands wanting to do the same thing/same time.  I also still have a huge problem keeping my thumb arched/curved on my bow. 

I found 5 techniques (so far) that influence our production of dynamics. 

  1. Bow speed 
  2. Bow weight 
  3. Bow position
  4. Bow hold 
  5. Bow roll/tilt

Fiddlerman makes great points about the angle/direction the bow moves to change position and bow tilt/rotation to change the amount of hair touching the strings.

https://fiddlerman.com/tutoria.....duction/ 

My exploration into bowing possibilities.

https://fiddlerman.com/forum/l.....ilities/ 

See the bow hand here - I set this video to start at "#2 Forte vs Piano".  (Different VIOLIN BOW HOLDS for Different Bowing Techniques)

 

I started this video where Zlata discusses "playing too soft".  The beginning of the video (I skipped over) is about finding how lightly you can hold your bow vs the point you let it drop from your hand.  (How to Play Soft without Bow Shakes - Violin Lounge)

 

https://patriotden.com/fotki/smileys/Fiddle_Player_Smiley_Face.GIF

...anyone know of any other skills, related to bowing, we could use to master dynamics?

- Emily

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wtw
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March 30, 2021 - 3:58 pm
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@ELCBK Thanks for this thread ! I'll follow it closely.

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stringy
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March 30, 2021 - 7:30 pm
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Rosin.

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ELCBK
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March 31, 2021 - 12:11 am
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You guys are keeping me on my toes! 

Going to edit my post - changing "factors to techniques" and add "our production of", to clarify & fit the heading of this thread. 

"Brain-on-Fiddle", afraid I'll never make a good public speaker.🙄

 

@GregW -

Thank you!

Valid point!  It's definitely important we choose the appropriate dynamics and bowing patterns to create specific styles of music. 

But, does a "style of music" actually produce dynamics? 

Maybe we should take a closer look at bowing patterns we learn for some genre music.  Are any a technique/skill used for variable loudness & timbre? 

They can make distinct sounds, but is that really dynamics?  Aren't bowing patterns more for rhythm, and some that cross strings also for variable pitch?

Did I muddle things up?

 

@stringy -

Thank you! 

Definitely!  Rosin, type and amount used, can be a factor.  

I'd go as far as including the quality of bow hair, bow, strings and also the actual instrument. 

But, are any of these a bowing technique or skill we learn to vary the loudness & timbre of dynamics?  

I see these all more as products/equipment - very important ones. 

 

giphy.gif

So many skills to learn all together can be overwhelming!

...good thing we enjoy being Fiddlers and Ceddlers! 🤪

- Emily 

 

🥰 Love more ideas/tips on this subject!

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Gordon Shumway
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March 31, 2021 - 5:40 am
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(sorry, I've lost track of whether this thread is about dynamics or tone)

You haven't even mentioned vibrato!

No offence, but there are some beginners here, and all this stuff (the full monty) is too complex for them.

For good tone (and I mean Itzhak Perlman good), bow half way between the bridge and the fingerboard and (a) use maximum possible (using your ears to judge) pressure for your bow speed.

Dynamics

To get louder, bow faster and apply more pressure (a).

To get softer, bow slower and apply less pressure (a).

Probably vibrato needs to come next (for good tone).

The rest will follow later.

Rosin or strings may affect tone, but if you are a beginner you will have 1000 times greater effect on your tone by practising.

When you play that loud note with a fast bow, and your bow slides over the string with a squealing noise, it's not because you need more rosin, it's because you aren't applying enough bow pressure (unless you last rosined your bow a month ago).

Jack Benny is not only joking - if he were a poor violinist, he'd be expressing an important truth!

Andrew

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Gordon Shumway
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March 31, 2021 - 6:05 am
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Simpler version of the above.

Yeah, let's keep the thread to dynamics.

It's not the case that your dynamics are suffering because you don't have enough to think about: it strikes me that your playing is being hindered by having too much to think about, yet you are asking for even more to think about!

KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

First, good tone: bow half way between the bridge and the fingerboard and use maximum possible (using your ears to judge) pressure for your bow speed.

Dynamics

To get louder, bow faster and apply more pressure (keep using your ears).

To get softer, bow slower and apply less pressure (keep using your ears).

.

Then later add vibrato for better tone (when your ears are happy with the pitch).

.

Then much later worry about anything else.

We are tempted into taking on too much because in our old age we are impatient and we know we are less good than we want to be and the urge to play catch-up is very powerful.

Sorry, that's the best I can offer.

Andrew

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Gordon Shumway
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March 31, 2021 - 7:16 am
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As far as I can tell, Emily wants to know the basic technique of playing loud or soft. Before you can combine them in a piece, you have to be able to do them separately. Can you play a whole piece soft? Can you play a whole piece loud? Can you play a scale soft or loud? If not, it's not your rosin, not your bow, not your violin, not your shoulder rest. You have to practise.

The simplest answer to Emily then is the one I gave above.

To play loud, bow fast and apply lots of pressure (use whole bows if you have to).

To play soft, bow slow and apply little pressure.

In all cases follow Benedetti's advice, which I'm sure we agreed on, to use the maximum pressure for your bowing speed for good tone.

If I have understood you correctly, you can play Twinkle Twinkle to do practice of this kind. To play it loud, use a whole bow per note. To play it soft, use an inch of bow per note.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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March 31, 2021 - 10:01 am
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Hey, thanks for all the opinions on this subject! 

I just didn't see "Style of Music" as a bowing technique for making Dynamics.  

And, Rosin is not a bowing skill I can use to produce Dynamics.

As I eluded to in my 1st post, I'm struggling right now to consciously focus on controlling changes in my bow hold, for better Dynamics (variation of loudness & timbre).  When I don't, it's very noticeable - I can sound terrible no matter how much bow weight/"pressure", or speed I use. (lol) 

Like to remind myself that William Fitzpatrick mentioned something like there's a hundred different bow stokes and also, that many ways of holding the bow.

Noticing I'm slowly gaining more subconscious control over some of the other bowing techniques related to Dynamics - except I've barely begun exploring the bow positions closer to the fingerboard.  Think it's because, for me on my 5-string, it's a mighty fine line between bowing on a string close to the fingerboard and playing double stops! (lol)    

I do believe in keeping things simple - at least broken down in simple parts/components. 

Do I want to be oblivious to all that is possible for me to achieve and the knowledge of how to do it? 

This is a question I ask myself every day. 😊

...twinkle, twinkle!

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ELCBK
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March 31, 2021 - 10:42 am
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@GregW - 

Lol Laughing EmoticonsYou don't need more sleep, but the Snickers sounds good! 

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/conceptual-hand-writing-showing-clarity-business-photo-showcasing-quality-being-easy-to-see-hear-sharpness-image-sound-129597022.jpg

               Must've missed my post where I said I'd edit... for topic

 

     https://rlv.zcache.com/purple_cartoon_music_note_3_ring_binder-r23bc0c71090d41118ef34eb7770106f9_xz8md_8byvr_307.jpg?rvtype=content

Wish I could write perspicuously!

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GregW
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ELCBK said
@GregW - 

Lol Laughing EmoticonsYou don't need more sleep, but the Snickers sounds good! 

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/conceptual-hand-writing-showing-clarity-business-photo-showcasing-quality-being-easy-to-see-hear-sharpness-image-sound-129597022.jpg

               Must've missed my post where I said I'd edit... for topic

 

     https://rlv.zcache.com/purple_cartoon_music_note_3_ring_binder-r23bc0c71090d41118ef34eb7770106f9_xz8md_8byvr_307.jpg?rvtype=content

Wish I could write perspicuously!

 

 

subtle...obviously style of music isnt a skill and the context of the question changes my reaponse..

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ELCBK
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March 31, 2021 - 5:15 pm
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It may seem like I dig too much into some of these subjects

- especially since I haven't come upon 2 years of playing, yet. (lol) 

Just think everyone can benefit by trying to learn

beyond their current capabilities.  

Doesn't mean I can immediately act upon what I learn! 🙄 

Personally, I search to associate/remember what I think are the most important elements of more advanced skills for playing the violin - Music Theory and history, also. 

If I'm able to store these "key features" in the back of my mind, it becomes so much easier for me to test them out when I'm ready. 

Discussion of what all of you feel is important really helps me reinforce what I remember!  

giphy.gif 

 

Hope it helps some of you, also.

Thank you! 🤗

 

...more pesky wabbits for Easter.

- Emily

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Grandpafiddle
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March 31, 2021 - 7:44 pm
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I had to share. This young lady's talent and dedication is amazing. What an inspiration.

Grandpaviolin

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ELCBK
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@Grandpafiddle -

Manami Ito is AMAZING and an inspiration to all! 

I've seen her before and it should be noted that Manami Ito played the violin for 13 years before her accident, but it took another 13 years afterwards for her to get the special prosthetic arm/bow - so she could play again! 

 

giphy.gif

 

...don't let anything get in the way of your Bowing for Dynamics!  

Big believer in always taking full advantage of what you have to work with. 😊

- Emily

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Fiddlerman
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That Jack Benny video. ROFL
I can't stop laughing. Thanks for the post, I had totally forgotten that one.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Gordon Shumway
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Fiddlerman said
That Jack Benny video. ROFL 

Hi, Pierre. I like this extended version because I know something about the mystery of Stradivari's non-drying varnish, but I wonder if it means as much to people who don't know anything about it.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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April 14, 2021 - 7:54 am
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I love all of Jack Benny's comedy - you should have just led with this last one! 

...also, very effective "Bowing for Dynamics"! 

Smiley Broke Apart Smiley

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Gordon Shumway
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Yes, but this last one was surprisingly difficult to find. Once I decided to look for it, the only way I could find it was by clicking on Youtube watch history, selecting jack Benny and then going back 2 years!

Andrew

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ELCBK
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@Gordon Shumway 

Knew there was a reason why I like you so much! 

tenor.gif

- Emily

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