Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Tilting the bow
Any videos?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
Avatar
Katie M
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 8:28 am
Member Since: December 8, 2020
Forum Posts: 705
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Has anyone got tilting the bow nailed and can demonstrate ? Or can recommend a video? Thanks 

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 9:03 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2189
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Perlman is not explicit about this particular aspect - you have to watch carefully. One thing he does is start tilted at the frog and then flatten out to some extent midbow. That's interesting, as it may be an indication of how best to master the frog.

This is more explicit, but she doesn't play the violin, lol!

It's easily seen here

I suppose the problem with someone like Perlman is that because he doesn't need to, that doesn't mean you don't have to. But the problem with these demo videos is that they make no attempt to produce good tone. The rest is for you to search for on Youtube. (couple more examples)

Andrew

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 9:20 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2189
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I remember 45+ years ago hearing on the radio someone saying that what made a certain cellist unique was that his scales sounded like music. I always thought that was a silly thing to say, as scales should always be practised as though they were music, but here Bushkova, along with others, shows that scales can be practised as though they were just dead notes. That's probably an over-interpretation - she probably practises them as though they were music, but here her demos are really lacking in soul.

Andrew

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 12:32 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Katie M -

I've run across many videos that talk about/show bow tilt. 

It's to help play lighter/softer. 

 

I feel like I only slightly 'draw up/in my fingertips' - like I'm beginning to close my hand or make a fist, as I get near the frog.  If I use my wrist at all, it's really so slight I don't notice.

This video talks about the same thing, but uses the term "collapsing" the fingers/hand. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/24/3f/83243ff54a53af1729665fff16b182a0.jpg

 

I did find it helpful to practice keeping even tone while alternating between tilted bow & flat hair at different points in a long bow stroke.

- Emily

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 12:50 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2189
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCBK said
I did find it helpful to practice keeping even tone while alternating between tilted bow & flat hair at different points in a long bow stroke. 

There is an exercise you can do which involves rolling the bow. The bow begins tilted with the hair one way, then as you move towards the other end you roll the bow so that the hair is tilted the other way. The purpose is to achieve no audible change in tone through the bow stroke.

Andrew

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 2:08 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Gordon Shumway -

Makes sense to strive for smooth changes of any kind, but I believe the main concern should be to alternate between tilting the stick away (toward the scroll) and back to flat hair - while keeping a consistent tone. 

 

To be clear, it is an act of "rolling" the bow, but I don't see any good reason (right now) to tilt, or 'roll', toward the bridge - even as an exercise.

Avatar
Mark
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 2:16 pm
Member Since: September 30, 2014
Forum Posts: 1846
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You can see Heifitz rolls the bow both directions as needed.

And he's still the King

 

Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.

Albert Sammons

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 2:33 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2189
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, I had forgotten that one - but note that the hairs point away from him for the down-bow staccato. That's worth noting - it must be to angle the wrist etc to facilitate that.

Andrew

Avatar
Katie M
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 2:55 pm
Member Since: December 8, 2020
Forum Posts: 705
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Thanks everyone , this is a lot to take in , see you in a few years.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 3:08 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Mark -

You're killin' me! 🤣 

That is SOOOO hard to see with that poor video quality, but I can see it.   

 

Do you really think Katie needs to concern herself with this Heifetz level of nuance right now?  (editing my previous post)

...I'm genuinely interested, not only for Katie - but also for myself. 

 

Know of any more examples, maybe other than the top 3 Classical Violinists of all time?

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 4:26 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Katie M - 

Shoot, Katie - not trying to confuse you. 

Honestly, it's so natural to do this 'tilting' I just don't think about it, but looks like I might be using my thumb more - like if rolling a pencil in my hand. 

Avatar
Mark
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 5:17 pm
Member Since: September 30, 2014
Forum Posts: 1846
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

I'm sorry ELCBK and Katie M I'm just been obnoxious with that video.

From my own limited playing time and ability, I believe Zukerman has some great advice, to tilt the bow at the frog(hair away from you  because of the extra weight we all have at the frog)up to about midsection section of the bow to help with unwanted bow bounce and pulling a good even sound throughout the bow stroke then flattening the bow hair starting at the midsection to the tip for good sound and keeping a even sound throughout the bow stroke(much less weight at the tip).

There are some basic technical requirements that have to be met, however, we all must experiment with what works for each one individually to accomplish that requirement. 

Most of us have some amount of lesser flexibility than a younger person, some have stamina issues, hearing issues and the list goes on.

We have to be willing to study and put what we read and think works into practice, as boring as it is a few minutes of open strong work every practice where your concentrating on the bow arm only can lead to great dividends playing, that's where we can start to build good muscle memory when we can do the basic movements of playing with out having to concentrate on the very basics, then we have the ability to make choices on how we want to play and the brains and hand just do it without have to concentrate to do it, it just happens.

Sorry for being windy, sound is something I'm always working on to try and make the fiddle sound like I hear it I'm my head, for me its a never ending journey, of trying create my personal sound that I hear, and can be happy with it. My sound is mine alone, its personal, I can't sound like someone else, as mush as I wish I could.

Mark 

Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.

Albert Sammons

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 5:29 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Y'all got me thinking here - that's worth something. 😊

Avatar
Katie M
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 5:33 pm
Member Since: December 8, 2020
Forum Posts: 705
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

That video was insane ! I’ve never seen it but actually made me feel better about my set up so thanks for posting Mark. I think open strings is a fab idea and was practicing just playing them earlier ! Well I had no choice because i’d lost my glasses ! I like the idea of making scales sound musical as well. I’m finding I’m not really hearing what other people can hear especially when Gordon was saying if you play flat hairs it’s a heavier tone. I’m hoping that will improve.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 5:54 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Katie M -

I don't think it's easy on joints & muscles to play the way Heifetz does - and worth mentioning he retired from public performance because of right shoulder injury. 

He also hated shoulder rests & didn't allow them in his classes... 

Avatar
SharonC
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 6:30 pm
Member Since: June 24, 2020
Forum Posts: 1105
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Mark said
. . . sound is something I'm always working on to try and make the fiddle sound like I hear it I'm my head, for me its a never ending journey, of trying create my personal sound that I hear, and can be happy with it. . .

@Mark  I agree with you 100%  The never ending journey. . .smile

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Members

Regulars
September 29, 2022 - 6:47 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 2189
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCBK said

I don't think it's easy on joints & muscles to play the way Heifetz does - and worth mentioning he retired from public performance because of right shoulder injury. 

Half say he injured his shoulder by raising his elbow too high. The other half say he was attacked by a Zionist with an iron bar for refusing to remove Richard Strauss from his repertoire. https://www.violinist.com/disc.....hive/6745/

He also hated shoulder rests & didn't allow them in his classes...

That may be because historical shoulder rests were horrible. A friend had one in the 1970s and it was like a 19th century sofa on the back of his instrument.

Andrew

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
September 30, 2022 - 5:23 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I just look at tilting the bow as yet another factor in the mix of bowing variables such as playing nearer the bridge or fingerboard, speed and pressure.

At the end of the day, the goal is to get the sound you want.

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
September 30, 2022 - 9:11 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 2928
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Jim Dunleavy said
I just look at tilting the bow as yet another factor in the mix of bowing variables such as playing nearer the bridge or fingerboard, speed and pressure.

At the end of the day, the goal is to get the sound you want.

  

That seems like the best route.   With so many variables..just having a sound you want in your mind and trying to find it.  Maybe closer to bridge or fingerboard... whatever the tilt is on the bow to get it.   Experiment with a tune thats known well without having to sight read or even just open strings to find it.  Then work from that.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Katie M
Guest(s) 93
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming HeadCheese, Mad_Wed, Andrew, Prudence, Lenicus, ButteryStuffs, kit, makinnoise, wisco kid, Nathalie, marta, AmandaKulp, klezmerkat, vocaliw95, winxart, nancyjoshua
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 5690
ABitRusty: 2928
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2680
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Gordon Shumway: 2189
damfino: 2078
Kevin M.: 1973
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31183
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 79
Topics: 10087
Posts: 127146
Newest Members:
Cyrus
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16195, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3741, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 4324