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Mixed time signatures....
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (17 votes) 
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AndrewH
Sacramento, California
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October 18, 2020 - 9:07 pm
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Some examples of when it might be preferable to use a meter change even when largely sticking to two time signatures:

 

4th movement of Borodin's 2nd Symphony: at the bottom of the picture you can see it alternating between 3/4 and 2/4 time. But 5/4 doesn't quite work because it isn't always alternating; there are sometimes more 3/4 measures. I suppose it could be notated with meter changes between 3/4 and 5/4. Still, Borodin most likely wanted much stronger emphasis on the stressed beats than you would normally see in the middle of a measure.

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Ernest Bloch used a different solution for the first movement of his Concerto Grosse No. 1. Here's the first page of the first violin part. The movement goes freely back and forth between 4/4 and 2/4 time, often alternating but not always. Bloch chose not to notate each meter change, but instead simply put both time signatures at the beginning to indicate that he would be using both.

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ELCB
Michigan, USA
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October 18, 2020 - 11:06 pm
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giphy.gif AndrewH - sure hope you're feeling better.

I definitely appreciate being able to learn as a topic arises and you are so generous!

It's going to take me a bit to absorb everything here, but I've started reading/listening to some music that uses hemiola. 

You always help round out my perspective on a subject - Thank you! 

GregW - You always step up at the right time, too!

BillyG - This is a great thread! 

I have so many tunes in my head that I'm doubtful anything original could pop out! 

Looking forward to when you crank out more!

giphy.gif

 

- Emily

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 2:10 am
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ELCB said
......BillyG - Guess I was thinking I'd heard you play enough, but I must be projecting my own preferences here - sorry!

Thought you might be able to use a combination of fractional quavers & rests, possibly a compound time signature (all the way through) to help express the fun/light heartfelt way I've seen you play. 

Sure takes me a long time to narrow down what I really want to say!

So, did you decide to stick with your 3rd version, or 2nd? - Emily  

Ahaaaa, I see, I see @ELCB !   Got yah !

In answer to your question there - I mentioned I have no preference - it would matter not to me which scored version "landed on my desk"

My original post was just set up for discussion only (which we've had a lot of !  And that's a Good Thing !) and really to get an answer to the question I posed in the original post which was - 

Do you care about having mixed-meter scores, does it concern you, does it matter ? LOL

I'm just curious about this because as I say, it really matters-not to me, but I do appreciate that it can sometimes cause confusion - especially if simply presented with a new score, having never heard it played....  And yes - of course the 3/4-all-the-way-through-score could be readily clarified by specific up and down bow indications, I accept that. 

Just wondering!

Might I even suggest (tongue in cheek, don't take it seriously!) the following notation is just ideal ?  [ Actually, it's not, because I had to remove the repeat and the volta 1 and 2 ...  but you'll get what I'm hinting at..... and to make it identical to all the other 3 versions when played I'd have to replace what is now bar 82 with another 24/4 bar, same as the first one, but with the final 3 notes changed to what's currently shown in bar 82 (and "lose" that original bar altogether) ]

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roflroflroflrofl

Also @AndrewH - wonderful - many thanks indeed for stepping in with these examples!  Notational form is at least one area where classical violin and folk-fiddle can meet (assuming the player is not a fiddler who plays only by ear) - just sometimes wish some of the hastily scored-up fiddle tune sheets one sees could be as clear !  I guess it's similar to what you say - The rhythmic device used in the original post (three two-beat groupings in two three-beat measures) is common enough that there is a term for it: it's called a hemiola. Typically in the classical world it's written without any time signature change because it's fairly obvious to musicians that they are seeing a hemiola.   So there you go "a hemiola" new one to me - and I have learned something from this exercise, thanks ! Quote from one reference I found - A hemiola is a rhythmic device that gives the impression of the music speeding up. Music which was originally in triple time moves into duple time. This gives the effect of triple metre moving to duple metre.    That's precisely what I had hoped to achieve!  Awesome !

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I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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AndrewH
Sacramento, California
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October 19, 2020 - 3:03 am
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Just to make the Dvorak a little more clear, here's what it looks like on the page (beginning of the 1st violin part). If the hemiola isn't entirely clear, you can always write in accents. Here, the accents are notated the first two times, and then after that the player can infer that similar groupings are hemiolas.

 

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 3:32 am
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thumbs-up @AndrewH , cheers !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 10:42 am
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ELCB said ....

BillyG - This is a great thread! 

I have so many tunes in my head that I'm doubtful anything original could pop out! 

Looking forward to when you crank out more!

LOL - turning that handle here....   haha, I was bored, wish it were that easy!

makin-tunes-1.gifImage Enlarger

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I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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ELCB
Michigan, USA
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October 19, 2020 - 11:57 am
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Smiley Broke Apart Smiley   

 

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- Emily  

 

giphy.gif  

 

 

 

TOE!

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 12:15 pm
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Just posted a first video attempt - won't repost the link here- it's on the original page - https://fiddlerman.com/forum/b.....l/#p110616

(and no, it's way past being a hornpipe ROFL!    Well, when I started out, it was, and I did say ""possibly".....)

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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