Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Mixed time signatures....
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (18 votes) 
Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
October 18, 2020 - 9:07 pm
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 1696
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Some examples of when it might be preferable to use a meter change even when largely sticking to two time signatures:

 

4th movement of Borodin's 2nd Symphony: at the bottom of the picture you can see it alternating between 3/4 and 2/4 time. But 5/4 doesn't quite work because it isn't always alternating; there are sometimes more 3/4 measures. I suppose it could be notated with meter changes between 3/4 and 5/4. Still, Borodin most likely wanted much stronger emphasis on the stressed beats than you would normally see in the middle of a measure.

IMG_20190905_033310934.jpgImage Enlarger

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ernest Bloch used a different solution for the first movement of his Concerto Grosse No. 1. Here's the first page of the first violin part. The movement goes freely back and forth between 4/4 and 2/4 time, often alternating but not always. Bloch chose not to notate each meter change, but instead simply put both time signatures at the beginning to indicate that he would be using both.

91IqyDwj1AL.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
October 18, 2020 - 11:06 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7828
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 AndrewH - 

Sure hope you're feeling better!

I definitely appreciate being able to learn as a topic arises and you are so generous!

It's going to take me a bit to absorb everything here, but I've started reading/listening to some music that uses hemiola. 

You always help round out my perspective on a subject - Thank you! 

GregW - You always step up at the right time, too!

BillyG - This is a great thread! 

I have so many tunes in my head that I'm doubtful anything original could pop out! 

Looking forward to when you crank out more!

giphy.gif

 

- Emily

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 2:10 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3744
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCB said
......BillyG - Guess I was thinking I'd heard you play enough, but I must be projecting my own preferences here - sorry!

Thought you might be able to use a combination of fractional quavers & rests, possibly a compound time signature (all the way through) to help express the fun/light heartfelt way I've seen you play. 

Sure takes me a long time to narrow down what I really want to say!

So, did you decide to stick with your 3rd version, or 2nd? - Emily  

Ahaaaa, I see, I see @ELCBK !   Got yah !

In answer to your question there - I mentioned I have no preference - it would matter not to me which scored version "landed on my desk"

My original post was just set up for discussion only (which we've had a lot of !  And that's a Good Thing !) and really to get an answer to the question I posed in the original post which was - 

Do you care about having mixed-meter scores, does it concern you, does it matter ? LOL

I'm just curious about this because as I say, it really matters-not to me, but I do appreciate that it can sometimes cause confusion - especially if simply presented with a new score, having never heard it played....  And yes - of course the 3/4-all-the-way-through-score could be readily clarified by specific up and down bow indications, I accept that. 

Just wondering!

Might I even suggest (tongue in cheek, don't take it seriously!) the following notation is just ideal ?  [ Actually, it's not, because I had to remove the repeat and the volta 1 and 2 ...  but you'll get what I'm hinting at..... and to make it identical to all the other 3 versions when played I'd have to replace what is now bar 82 with another 24/4 bar, same as the first one, but with the final 3 notes changed to what's currently shown in bar 82 (and "lose" that original bar altogether) ]

Somewhat-extreme-but.JPGImage Enlarger

roflroflroflrofl

Also @AndrewH - wonderful - many thanks indeed for stepping in with these examples!  Notational form is at least one area where classical violin and folk-fiddle can meet (assuming the player is not a fiddler who plays only by ear) - just sometimes wish some of the hastily scored-up fiddle tune sheets one sees could be as clear !  I guess it's similar to what you say - The rhythmic device used in the original post (three two-beat groupings in two three-beat measures) is common enough that there is a term for it: it's called a hemiola. Typically in the classical world it's written without any time signature change because it's fairly obvious to musicians that they are seeing a hemiola.   So there you go "a hemiola" new one to me - and I have learned something from this exercise, thanks ! Quote from one reference I found - A hemiola is a rhythmic device that gives the impression of the music speeding up. Music which was originally in triple time moves into duple time. This gives the effect of triple metre moving to duple metre.    That's precisely what I had hoped to achieve!  Awesome !

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
October 19, 2020 - 3:03 am
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 1696
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Just to make the Dvorak a little more clear, here's what it looks like on the page (beginning of the 1st violin part). If the hemiola isn't entirely clear, you can always write in accents. Here, the accents are notated the first two times, and then after that the player can infer that similar groupings are hemiolas.

 

2020-10-18-2.pngImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 3:32 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3744
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

thumbs-up @AndrewH , cheers !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 10:42 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3744
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

ELCB said ....

BillyG - This is a great thread! 

I have so many tunes in my head that I'm doubtful anything original could pop out! 

Looking forward to when you crank out more!

LOL - turning that handle here....   haha, I was bored, wish it were that easy!

makin-tunes-1.gifImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
October 19, 2020 - 11:57 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7828
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Smiley Broke Apart Smiley   

 

tenor.gifImage Enlarger

 

 

- Emily  

 

giphy.gif  

 

 

 

TOE!

Avatar
BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
October 19, 2020 - 12:15 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 3744
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Just posted a first video attempt - won't repost the link here- it's on the original page - https://fiddlerman.com/forum/b.....l/#p110616

(and no, it's way past being a hornpipe ROFL!    Well, when I started out, it was, and I did say ""possibly".....)

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Jim Dunleavy, Mouse
Guest(s) 85
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Shell, Squiryl, GlassTownCur, mcassidy2004, Reptile Smile, MyMing, CarolineNH, JamesRSmithJr, SethroTull86
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7828
ABitRusty: 3921
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2435
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2154
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31673
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 82
Topics: 10606
Posts: 134387
Newest Members:
alicedcoz258, Dres pirate, tonyluo, Terrence Terry Ruddy, andrea924breaux, pybring, stive4545, kevin498, Fiddlerjones, FidgetFrog
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16430, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5356