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ELCBK said
@ABitRusty -
Enjoyed the video, helps - Thanx!
Had a little laugh near the end, where he says he wouldn't recommend composing anything in Mixolydian, because it would be limiting.
...all those Highland bagpipe tunes. 🎃
he is speaking from a chord progression standpoint.
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Arpeggios (at least 2 octave) should be talked about whenever discussing extended chords! I think it's a GREAT way to get used to hearing & playing extended chords on bowed strings!
I really want to thank @AndrewH - for bringing up some benefits of learning the Flesch 3 Octave Arpeggios in his "Adventures of an ambitious late-starter violist" blog!
Excerpts from "Scale Up Your Practice: Carl Flesch Distilled" (Violinist.com):
Galamian was an innovator and logician of violin technique. Carl Flesch, on the other hand, built his system upon the pedagogy of Otakar Ševcík expanding it as he thought the repertoire required. Everything in the Flesch scale system is immediately applicable to the most challenging passages in violin repertoire. Interestingly, in Galamian’s many editions of the standard repertoire he seems to adopt the Flesch approach to fingerings more often than those in his own scale system.
The [Flesch Scale] system covers scales on one string, the three-octave scale and arpeggio sequence and the double-stop sections. It can be practiced in less than 30 minutes, once learned. But, of course, this presents the rub: Learning it!
When I hear an extended chord, or see one notated, I want to automatically think of it as broken. AND, I'd like to be able to recognize the order of notes I'm hearing played. 🤔... oh boy, there goes the rest of my lifetime. (lol)
In hearing & identifying extended chord qualities - it's the sounds I'm interested in! 🤔... especially the ones that make me feel a sense of intrigue, or tension... like something IS going to happen! The complex 'feelings', evoked by extended chords give them purpose (to me) - it's EXCITING & what I want to be able to add to music!
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I'm guilty of only playing arpeggios randomly & not consistently. Found a couple different approaches in videos that really help 'me' connect the sound of playing the 2 octave (or larger) arpeggios to the scale & even the extended chord notation!
As more octaves are added, more of the fingerboard is used.
It makes sense to start these arpeggio exercises at the lowest pitch our instrument allows, like G on Violin & C on Viola/Cello - the goal being use the whole fingerboard.
...now THIS starts to get harry for me starting out, because I have my 5-string Violin strung FCGDA. I'm certainly not going to be able to find a video to follow for my Violin this way! I haven't had a chance to look for good Viola & Cello videos, yet. Think I'll start by just using my 5-string Viola (CGDAE) & not use the C for now - to practice along with this Julia Bushkova video I like!
For 'me' learning to identify what I hear & play, it's important that I'M BEING TOLD what scale the arpeggio is - I'm terrible with names & wish I had them in giant lettering before my eyes! Also, it helps me to SEE something (like extended chords) notated for it's qualities, and I want to be able to hear/check my intonation (like against Julia's playing) - throughout the exercises!
I LOVE that Julia shows 9 different arpeggios & talks about why, then near the end she also shows inversions - still starting on 'G'!
There's another approach - using drones.
I like this approach, too - even though I never cared for using drones with scale practice... for some reason it doesn't bother me here & actually helps with arpeggios!
This video is an introduction to IMTEX Online Media Library lessons - learning 3 Octave Arpeggios by using drones. I have not checked, but the video description talks about Viola & Cello versions. I'm still considering paying for a 6 month subscription.
Leah Roseman has a playlist collection of 18 individual '3 Octave Arpeggio' videos - major, minor, dominant, diminished, to play-along with.
She also has a little exercise for moving up each position to the 6th.
I'd like to find some good videos for Viola & Cello to work with - found a few... meh.
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I still want to pay special attention to diminished 7 chords & arpeggios, because of their use in the Blues & Gypsy Jazz.
Talked about this earlier in the thread, but see I didn't post these 2 videos I liked (from Outlaw Fiddle Jam)... might've posted them somewhere else, but good to go over.
I keep forgetting how cool the 1½ step intervals are here - that are unique.
🤔... answered my previous post question - so, fiddlers DO expect a bass or guitar to play the root (so they don't have to)!
VIOLA!
Diminished Arpeggios for Viola! (David Rose)
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David Rose has 2 more VIOLA videos I think are good to play along with, they are slow.
I'm a little disheartened that I CAN'T FIND ANY VIOLA videos of 3 Octave Arpeggios played like the Carl Flesch violin exercises (but starting on C) or like what Julia Bushkova presented. 🙁
I couldn't spend a lot of time on this yesterday or today, but I don't think I'm going to have as much trouble starting on my F string, as I originally thought - after I've gotten used to the arpeggios on CGDAE. I think my new little keyboard will be a tremendous help if I get stuck or screw up intonation. At least I've gotten the idea of the fingering & shifting from the videos.
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Seems like all I hear now are arpeggios!!!
I watched the "Bodies" series on Netflix this weekend (cool Brittish sci-fi/crime).
...what do you think the opening theme (by Jon Opstad) is made of?
Anyway, wanted to get back to thinking about how 7th & extended chords make me feel.
...can't believe I thought this video might actually be a good idea! 🤭
Btw, there's a few other chords included.
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One thing to be aware of for diminished seventh chords: all the intervals are minor thirds, including when going from one octave to the next. What this means is: a diminished seventh chord is the same chord in four different keys, which makes it useful as a pivot chord or for producing ambiguity about what key the music is in. That's one reason it appears so often in late Romantic music.
One good example that I can think of is measures 55-58 of the first movement of Brahms Piano Trio No. 1, which is about 1:50 into this video. (I'd recommend listening a little before and after it so you can really hear the effect.) In these four measures the piano stays entirely within a diminished seventh chord. This is a transitional moment, and the diminished seventh creates a certain unstable feeling. In the larger context, there has just been an unexpected E7 chord that seems like it's heading into a modulation to A major -- but instead the music goes into that diminished seventh passage and comes out of it in the original B major. So Brahms really uses the diminished seventh to drag out the anticipation of a modulation that doesn't happen.
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@AndrewH said:
One thing to be aware of for diminished seventh chords: all the intervals are minor thirds, including when going from one octave to the next. What this means is: a diminished seventh chord is the same chord in four different keys, which makes it useful as a pivot chord or for producing ambiguity about what key the music is in. That's one reason it appears so often in late Romantic music.
Appreciate this perspective - very cool.
Thanks for sharing what Brahms did there... very interesting.
Hey, I like getting taken for a bit of an unexpected ride! 🤗
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I don't want to forget there's some VERY helpful, info about ways to play & use chords in ALL the posts of the Here's Help Learning to Play Chords! Thread! Don't count out videos on cello (or viola), just because they don't have an E string - some perspectives just help learning 'click' for different people... even the Viola da Gamba videos (post #4, in that thread) offer different perspectives to consider (play cello, viola, have more than 4 strings, frets on their violin, or want to understand tablature?)!
There's a lot of great music played on instruments known for chording (I grew up listening to a lot of iconic rock/heavy metal guitar & bass superstar bands). Plucked/strummed string instruments, keyboard-type instruments, and some droning instruments (hurdy gurdy, bagpipes, synthesizer, etc...) are able to provide melody as well as larger chords. They have a much 'fuller' feeling sound, and by choice of chord notes & pitch order for harmony can have a profound impact on emotion.
Many of us only play ONE instrument. I think it helps to at least understand a little about how these other instruments work & maybe their tuning... why?
My whole point... I still have a lot of music I want to learn that wasn't really meant for violin (like THAT's going to stop me 🤭). So, trying to find the 'soul' of these tunes/songs goes beyond playing the bare-bones melody on the fiddle. I want to be more creative in choosing chord notes for enhancing a melody on the fiddle - so I can get closer to that 'soul'.
I've learned enough about chords, now (but still learning), to tell when someone is pulling my leg in a tutorial - or over simplifying chord changes... we can get by with basic, but it's NOT going to neccessarily feel 'right'. Great music is great for a reason (reasons)! Sorry to bring up the nasty 8-letter word (again), but analysis helps with chords & harmony (as well as rhythm) - and there's some great sites that help!
Visualizing chords & chord progressions on a keyboard can be very helpful. It's worth me re-mentioning the Hook Theory Cheat Sheets for interactive scales/modes, common chords & common chord progressions. They have other great resources & help learning at the site, too.
ChordU has become EXTREMELY helpful to me, since I don't play guitar.
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My latest little rabbit hole started with Steve Earle's "Copperhead Road".
I always look at several performance videos AND tutorials, easily found the basic melody with pretty simple chords & progression - but I could tell there's more making this song feel great.
Seeing the actual chord notes played in guitar tablature, as well as the standard notation at ChordU - all in real time with a music video is phenomenal for a more accurate picture of what a guitar & bass are playing. This gives me a solid base of chords & progression, from which to choose individual notes best to capture what I feel is a song's emotional essence. ...this still requires experimenting for what's feasible on the fiddle (more strings comes in handy for more options).
I was able to use ChordU for this guitar video tutorial of Copperhead Road (gtroe1901) - you just need to sign in to access all the great features. It's interesting to note that everyone 'says' this is in the key of 'D' - but a closer look reveals D mixolydian, which may very well explain the 'feel' of this tune... more to it. Using larger chords of D, G, F#, G#,E, G#m, and C.
I was super excited to find I could also use ChordU for this Steve Earle LIVE video (lengthy instrumental intro, melody starts at 02:12) - to see the guitar AND bass chord notes written under tablature AND in standard notaion! Using G, D, A, E, Em, and C - all 4 note chords and larger.
The ChordU site is mainly meant for play-along practice (also available as an app for android or Apple), but I think it's a wonderful tool to use for chord & chord progression analysis, too! I found quite a few other features for FREE, possible tunings, simple vs advanced chords, download pdf, midi with choice of instruments (more with a small subscription) - definitely worth checking out it's features!
It's going to take me a bit more time to pick & choose what I like, what I want to use on my lower violin strings vs higher. Hadn't really planned on spending a lot of time at the moment - maybe more after the Holidays. It's a cool tune I've had my mind on for a while & the bare-bones melody was just feelin' a little naked. ...just out of curiosity, I did also look at 'fiddle' & even a bagpipe tutorial video of "Copperhead Road" on YT - interesting to see how others approach playing it!
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sites like chordu, thesession, ultimateguitar. etc.. are all great resources and Ive used all of them at one point or another. They are user supported and may not make sense depending on whatever the situation is..but not necessarily wrong either. Its always good to understand that theyre helpful but not always the gospel so to speak. 🙂. You just have to figure out if what youre seeing works for you and your specific needs and just because someone has a different version, doesnt mean that one has to be incorrect vs the other. That being said, if Steve Earl posted the chords he played on the original, then yeah.. id go with that if wanting to play the chords exactly like he played them, if thats even possible. 🙂
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@ABitRusty -
I found ChordU to be quite a bit different from Ultimate-Guitar, or The Session... more features & definitely more interactive. Also different (more features) than my Spark amp app 'Smart Jam'. Not sure how much might be A.I. generated, since it says, "automatically recognizes chords".
A lot for FREE, but impressive extras for only a couple $ per month.
ChordU
NOT saying it's the ONLY site/app like this, though - I don't know.
I had run across 'Ultimate-Guitar' in some of my searches - appreciate you got me to take a closer look!
...I'd forgot about SOUNDSLICE - it is community based (Frequently Asked Questions).
A free music theory 'slice' of Seventh Chords!
It's a FREE SOUNDSLICE sample from a course, with some interesting links to other FREE samples (from the same course), like Triads with an Added Ninth! VERY cool hearing how they sound AND seeing how they can be used to create a melody!
NO installing software, just use from ANY browser! 'Slices' without a video have a synth overlay. MUCH better than just playing along with YT videos (interactive features)... think I'll try to spend a little more time on the SOUNDSLICE site to see exactly what I want to use.
Found they have a bunch of FREE VIOLIN (Classical, Orchestral, Elementary, Folk, Lessons, and Jazz catagories) learning/practicing stuff (besides courses/transcriptions available in their store)! ALSO, some for VIOLA (Classical, Orchestral, Elementary, Pop, Film score, Scottish, and Rock!), and Cello (Classical, Orchestral, Elementary, Pop, Rock, and Lesson catagories). Unfortunately, these don't help with CHORDS - BUT, there are GUITAR 'slices' available with larger chords, to see/hear them, use for harmony.
🤔... I hadn't thought of using SOUNDSLICE in place of my notation software, but worth checking out - NO APPS, NO SOFTWARE - FREE! SOUNDSLICE Notation & Tab Editor
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