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Seems like it's taken me an awful long time to get here... my thoughts (after torturing you all with many of my other threads) - discussion WELCOME!
Harmony was such an important part of the Rock, Popular/Folk music I grew up with & LOVE - predominantly MINOR. I believe it can be at least partly responsible for the soulful melancholy I love in music - emotional expression. I'm also attracted to interesting Harmony + interesting chord progressions = unexpected.
This past year, in particular, I've been noticing an overly abundant presence of 7th Chords used in music I like... and I wanted to learn how this might relate to my playing a tune (violin or viola), what I might consider differently in playing backup - or even looping.
So, we sometimes imply a chord by just playing it's root, or we play double stops and also 3 or 4 note broken chords. I see that larger chords can help music feel richer, more expressive, but I also see that if I'm not careful with extended chord inversions I might run the risk of too much tension, or just get carried away & become atonal! 😖
Taken to the extreme. 🤣
When I took a closer look at the 7th note in scales, I realized that I had been blinded by playing only what I see - not seeing what was really happening, kinda like the epiphany I had learning how the 3rd determines if a scale feels Major or Minor.
I can see that D dorian uses the same notes as C Major (whoopee, no sharp or flats to play), but I was missing out on what was probably most important, WHY C Major sounds completely different than D dorian! When you look at the intervals, the 1st triad chord of D dorian = D minor, they BOTH have a flatted 3rd compared to the C Major scale!
But what about the other half of the notes in a scale? This is where the quality of the 7th (and 6th) become important in flavoring the mood!
Turns out I can feel free to modify the 6th & 7th scale degrees of a scale whenever it suits me, to enhance Minor Harmony! I had to look at the interval of the 6th & 7th against the TONIC (for scales)/ROOT (for chords) to see if Major or Minor.
I can even chose to use one (or ALL - Bach did!) of the 4 combinations of 6th's & 7th's for Minor Harmony in one piece: minor 6th/minor 7th (seen in Natural Minor), minor 6th/major 7th (seen in Harmonic Minor), major 6th/major 7th (seen in Melodic Minor) & major 6th/minor 7th (seen in Dorian)!
I'm only concerned with 7th chords at the moment - but I'm not sure which ones to use where, yet - just that I might be able use more than one kind of 7th in a piece! 🤗
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...now I'm lazy, so if I can get along with less, great. 😉
I jumped at the chance to learn about "How To 'IMPLY' A Seventh Chord Harmony Using Only Two Notes Your 3 Year Old Can Play" - 😳
Using just two notes, you can imply a seventh chord harmony and this makes it easier to play seventh chords and it doesn’t even get any easier than this.
🤣
I really didn't want to have to think about this as on piano - may have to just memorize more of these by using them on violin/viola, but I'll try to go over the tutorial again, I might see it differently.
Still, find it great to think it's possible to do something more interesting than what I have been playing.
🤔... except these aren't unusual doublestops!
The examples of 'implied' 7th harmony from the tutorial:
Minor:
C•F - over D (for Dmin 7th)
E•A - over F# (for F#min 7th)
Major:
C#•F# - over D (for Dmaj 7th)
B•E - over C (for Cmaj 7th)
Played these & a few others, but haven't tried using them in any tune I play yet. I can see it's going to be very important to know what key I'm playing tunes in until I get used to thinking this way! 🤔... I usually don't think about key, but glad I have an open C & low F string, possibly a perfect place to start with a D minor tune!
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So, I read over the 'Implied' Seventh Chord tutorial, again.
Just realized how common it is to use these double stops in our playing!
🤔... It would seem 'if' I already know the 4 notes of ANY 7th chord I'm trying to 'imply'... all I really have to do is invert the 3rd & 7th - play it over the tonic.
🤔... BUT, usually inversions are interchangeable when using chords on violin/viola/cello (in fact, we usually don't have to worry about what order we play the notes of ANY chord), so why not just use the 3rd & 7th note degrees of any scale? Is this a case where they CANNOT be interchanged, is this 'slimmed-down' chord 'note order dependent' - for the 7th chord feel? ...haven't found/figured an answer, yet.
🤔... Now, I'm not sure (yet) of ALL the potential uses for an 'Implied' 7th chord in our playing. If I use it for backing a tune, seems I might only use it when the tonic is played in the melody, or as a transition chord. Not sure (yet) how to work it into a melody - maybe throw in as a transition, or else add the tonic... but the resulting 3-note chord may not be better, or easier, than the original (4-note) 7th chord.
The 'Blues', especially, uses MANY 7th chords & may be the best place for me to experiment.
🤔... Locating the 2 notes of an 'Implied' 7th chord on our bowed string instruments IS EASY! Find the 7th note you want, then play it along with one note lower (toward the nut) on the next higher string! Of course you can look at the 'Circle of 5ths' - locate the 7th, take one step counterclockwise, bingo... but takes too much time when playing.
🤔... 'If' it's possible to invert the 2 notes of 'Implied' 7th chords, they'd be a piece o'cake to locate, too! Just find the '7th' note you want & bridge your finger straight across to the next lower string! 🤗
🤔... the tutorial mentions they'll look at the 'Implied dominant seventh chord' - but I didn't see where that was addressed.
The '7th' note in a 'Dominant' 7th chord is a minor interval, so for Cmaj the 'IMPLIED' 7th chord would be: Bb & E - over C.
If anyone has actually tried or thought of using these AS 'Implied' 7th Chords - please let me know!
...I'm still learning about the qualities of the different 7th chords. 🤗
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Seventh Chords are supposed to show the root, the quality of Triad & 7th interval, plus inversion (if it is one) in their name - but some abbreviations/symbols make it harder for me to remember what their qualities are... more to memorize - or at least be able to recognize. 😊
Types:
Diminished° 7th (Fully-Diminished), Half-diminishedø , Minor 7th (Minor-Minor), Minor-major 7th, Dominant 7th (Major-Minor), Major 7th (Major-Major), Augmented 7th, Augmented-major 7th, Major 7th suspended 2nd, Major 7th suspended 4th, and Dominant 7th suspended 4th!
It is common to pair expressive qualities with seventh chords when learning what they sound like. You might think of major-major seventh chords as sounding “happy and jazzy,” major-minor seventh chords as sounding “unresolved” (like they strongly need to move to another chord), minor-minor seventh chords as “sad and jazzy,” half-diminished seventh chords as “scary and jazzy,” and fully diminished seventh chords as “very scary.” (Seventh Cords by Chelsey Hamm - Open Music Theory)
I haven't listen to enough different 7th chords to determine what feel from them - that's my next mission...
'A' Minor 7th Chords
- ton of info, with Audio!!! SEARCH THERE in the 'Chord' box for ALL other 7th Chords!
I found Wikipedia has audio to hear the difference between inversions of 7th chords! Don't know if it's just me, but thought the 3rd inversion had the most tension!
Now, I see absolutely no reason why we can't play similar to this on VIOLIN (especially 5-string 🤭), VIOLA, and CELLO!!! I think it's just a matter of deciding how we want the play 7th chords!
...sneaking in a little help with the pentatonic scales. 🤫
8 Ways to Use Pentatonic Scales Over 7th Chords!
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LOVE the basicmusictheory.com site - easily find ANY set of chords/scales/modes & can download sound for them!
Seems I've been playing quite a bit in Ador, Ddor, Gmin, Cmin, Amin - stuff I used to play in other keys before I started using my current tuning.
Now I want to compare Dorian to Minor!
A Dorian Mode:
A (tonic), B (maj 2nd), C (min 3rd), D (perf 4th), E (perf 5th), F# (maj 6th), G (min 7th)
Ador 7th Chords & Implied 7th Chords (*doublestops):
i⁷ (tonic) - Amin 7th (A•C•E•G) - *(G•C - over A)
ii⁷ (supertonic) - Bmin 7th (B•D•F#•A) - *(A•D - over B)
III⁷ (mediant) - Cmaj 7th (C•E•G•B) - *(B•E - over C)
IV⁷ (subdominant) - Ddom 7th (D•F#•A•C) - *(C•F# - over D)
v⁷ (dominant) - Emin 7th (E•G•B•D) - *(D•G - over E)
viø7 (submediant) - F# half-dim 7th (F#•A•C•E) - *(E•A - over F#)
VII⁷ (subtonic) - Gmaj 7th (G•B•D•F#) - *(F#•B - over G)
A Minor Scale:
A (tonic), B (maj 2nd), C (min 3rd), D (perf 4th), E (perf 5th), F (min 6th), G (min 7th)
Amin 7th Chords & Implied 7th Chords (*doublestops):
i⁷ (tonic) - Amin 7th (A•C•E•G) - *(G•C - over A)
iiø7 (supertonic) - B half-dim 7th (B•D•F•A) - *(A•D - over B)
III⁷ (mediant) - Cmaj 7th (C•E•G•B) - *(B•E - over C)
iv⁷ (subdominant) - Dmin 7th (D•F•A•C) - *(C•F - over D)
v⁷ (dominant) - Emin 7th (E•G•B•D) - *(D•G - over E)
VI⁷ (submediant) - Fmaj 7th (F•A•C•E) - *(E•A - over F)
VII⁷ (subtonic) - Gdom 7th (G•B•D•F) - *(F•B - over G)
One of the most common chord progressions is I, IV, V (ii, V, I for jazz?) - but just recently I looked a little closer at Celtic-type tune backing & was surprised at how many different progressions I found! ...never thought it could be different. 😳
Feels like I'm learning a strange new language!
🤔... not Klingon!
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@elcbk said...
One of the most common chord progressions is I, IV, V (ii, V, I for jazz?) - but just recently I looked a little closer at Celtic-type tune backing & was surprised at how many different progressions I found! ...never thought it could be different. 😳
Feels like I'm learning a strange new language!
🤔... not Klingon!
Backing is a skill itself..just like playing melody and really has to be practiced. In Irish especially, theres generally ONE person playing chords. And its pretty well that persons choice on how to do it, which includes chords, tunings, rhythm style e.g. ( Dennis Cahill vs John Doyle )
Now.. Commercial recordings could have anything. Im talking about maybe more practically speaking.
Ignore that he uses a guitar...this isnt a guitar video...its about chord choices and why to use what.
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@ABitRusty -
Thanks! Really appreciate you helping me out!
You, along with the video, bring up a bunch of stuff I've been thinking about (warning: RABBIT HOLE)! 😄 A LOT to take in - I definitely want to look at more of Nye's videos!
LOVE starting at 13:56: "you need to start thinking in a sort of contrapuntal sense" - "chords are melodies in their own right".
Think we're beyond playing backup now → and into Arranging/Composing music!!! Yep, & I've always wanted to see basslines & melody lines as interchangeable/mixable - eventually playing that way! Choosing chords & how they are played seems important if playing like Roberts Balanas! ("Pop songs with cool violin parts") ...ah, if only... 😍😎
I was VERY excited to see how Nye used some extended chords, but until I can find or figure out how to easily 'imply' a chord larger than a 7th (context for bowed strings) - still keeping the quality/feeling of the chord while using less notes, I'm limited in backing with them! Well, actually... 🤭 'I' can consider 5 note chords (5 strings!). 🤔... guess any larger, extended, chord CAN still be played broken on 4 strings, but not possible to break one down using only one bow stroke, though - is it? If more than one bow stroke is needed for an extended chord, doesn't it lose the 'quality' of the original chord - and feel like more than one chord?
Nye points out (at 2:45) - that as long as you play the root note lowest, the rest of the chord notes can be in ANY order. THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!
Answers one of my earlier questions (when playing on one instrument) - I need to not only play the tonic with my 'implied 7th' double stop, it also needs to be played in the root position! 🤔... so, this brings up more questions about extended chord inversions for me, because (from what I've read) they can NOT be thought of in the 'circular rotation' way I make triad & 7th chord inversions.
Nye keeps the integrity, 'the base', of an extended chord - think this shows the way he deals with the idiosyncrasies of large inversions... but I'm still back to thinking of what's possible/more feasible (fingerings & size of chords) on violin/viola/cello - for most folks here on the forum.
Another point I take from Nye's video - he is using a major I, IV, V progression for backing a major trad Irish tune.
Do you, by chance, happen to know of anywhere Dennis Cahill talked about HIS chord progressions & chord choices?
Now, I had only looked at a couple places, so far, for Celtic cord progressions. Interesting discussion at thesession.org - musicians were saying you'd be in trouble if you tried to stick to a I, IV, V for trad Irish (typical chord progressions for irish music?).
Nye did answer someone asking about Celtic chord progressions, at the StackExchange:
• For ionian tunes the main chords are Ⅰ major, Ⅳ major and Ⅴ major
• For the dorian mode the main chords used are ⅰ minor, Ⅳ major and Ⅶ major or ⅴ minor
• For the mixolydian mode the main chords used are Ⅰ major, Ⅶ major and ⅴ minor
• For the aeolian mode the main chords used are ⅰ minor, Ⅳ major and Ⅶ major or ⅴ minor.
Did you see he advertises a very cool, "Amazing Mode Wheel"?
I need to check it out! (link in Nye's video description)
@ABitRusty said:
Backing is a skill itself..just like playing melody and really has to be practiced. In Irish especially, theres generally ONE person playing chords.
I'm just thinking like if 'I' want to join in with a fiddle.
In fact, recently I've had to go back to 'practicing' more noodling against videos (I originally learned melodies from) - trying to make it feel/sound more natural, especially for better use of my looping pedal. So, YES, I definitely know backing must be practiced & on a much longer-term basis than what I've been doing so far! 😔 ...I can see it's another thing I need to add to 'DAILY' practice, not just sporadic!
Hoping this thread will help me focus on a few simple things I can play, but which implies much more.
If I'm just playing the fiddle by myself, I have to think how to get the feel of some backing.
So far, I have NO idea how to play ANY FAST trad Irish/Cape Breton/Québécois this way, unless I can play a double stop to imply a chord/chord change within the melody.
Whew, really hope some of this makes sense & I don't have to edit!
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Nye has a couple of videos on what he feels Dennis did. Ill lead the topic off if start posting them all though
Ive watched them but havent REALLY sat down and FOCUSED just on that. Another good backer that too me has the less is more approach is Matt Heaton. He has some chord choices type vids out there too. And I dont mean simple I mean more along the lines of space between strums. Not so much driving type rhythm he does that too though. To me John Doyle is the one for that.
Dennis Cahill could do any of it as you know ...not saying anything thats a revelation 🙂 but seemed to lean more minimal or airy type playing. not the full jazz chords all the time.. maybe even ONE note placed perfectly and in time with what Martin Hayes was playing.
So maybe instead of thinking along the lines of how to play extended chords bowed... maybe somehow mix a bowed note(S) and some plucked notes in and out of same chord? mix it up and dont worry about having every single bar with some type of backing? a note here...a double stop there. maybe a long sustained drone in between? talking about backing irish melodies on fiddle..get into other genere then I would think the approach changes.
Maybe something else if wanting a ..say..Maj7 type would be to pluck or single note bow the root..then the 3rd and 5th... then single the 7th. experiment. related to celtic in my thought.. the initial 2 or 3 measures are more than likely going to be the tonic chord of whatevwr key/mode youre in so youd hqve time. A safe start on the 4th measure will be the V. this is where you could experiment with Dom7th. e.g. D7 not Dmaj7 for a G tune. I think a D5 would be better but you could try maybe playing 5th or 3rd with b7 and see how sounds against a melody line playing. 🙂 the last 2 measures is where the IV chord will probably come in.
youve just gotta experiment with the melody playing on a speaker or headphone. its really the best way. do what your doing in REVERSE... Instead of trying to figure it out ahead of time.. play and experiment THEN when you find something that sounds good hit the books and figure out what it was and why it worked.
Just throwing thoughts out...i havent really tried doing what your topic is about on fiddle so much. trying to back with extended chords on fiddle. just thought id share the Nye vid because of its content and relation to your topic. If i have a 2nd or 3rd fiddle part i just play around noodle to find something i like based on what chords ive already established as what i like using guitar or a keyboard part.
Have you tried learning inside of a bluegrass type apptoach? I think youll find more there than in any celtic type vid as far as it being fiddle centric. PLENTY of guitar stuff out there on that subject. Maybe even look for jazz fiddle type stuff?
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@ABitRusty -
Thanks a bunch!
I shouldn't be mixing thoughts of backing and soloing possibilities all together, but that's my brain on music - think we're basically on the same page.
Trying to stop thinking like just a melody player has been taking me a long time, even after backing & improv workshops at Fiddle Hell.
I have been practicing backing by improvising over a recording of a melody, but I don't do it enough. And, I've slowly been experimenting with how to change melodies I've been playing, to make them richer & more interesting... just times I get impatient when I know it's a long haul.
Looking closely at all the genres, some of the best ARE jazz violin and the blues for at least 7th chords. I keep an eye out in Bluegrass, but not my favorite genre... and high speed will continue to be my nemesis, wherever it shows up. 🙄
Trying to decide if I should spend time on a lesson package, when I'm still working on so much other stuff - maybe something for after Xmas.
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