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Intervals
More than you think!
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (10 votes) 
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ABitRusty
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October 10, 2022 - 10:15 pm
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thats a good one @SharonC. he did a good job with it on violin.  I think that was on one of those various artists cd's I had back in the 90s with moods in the title..  It had alot of those type intrumentals on it ..enignma was another instrumental group along with mike oldefeld..enya probably too.  I probably got it for the x files theme 🙂 or maybe the one by Deep Forrest.  had a good synthy beat to it.  

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ELCBK
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October 11, 2022 - 5:45 am
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Best Outdoor Halloween Decorations

 

@SharonC -

Oh YEAH - can't forget about that one! 

Thanks!

 

I thought the connection of the Jaws Theme to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm - was pretty cool!

Found some play-along sheet music for VIOLA. 

 

https://youtu.be/CfkJn2dFlYU

 

If anyone wants help practicing half steps (semi-tones) - here's a Fiddlerman play-along tutorial for the Chromatic Scale in G (2 octave)! 

 

 

A suggestion for people who don't think they can tackle something like Bach - try to learn just a phrase, a couple measures, pick any favorite section to learn.  You'll be able to add more, in time - slow videos down to make them easier to learn. 

- Emily

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ELCBK
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October 13, 2022 - 4:19 pm
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There's a video I posted back in January of 2021 in the

Using Music Theory to Enhance Your Tunes Thread  

It's just NOW making so much sense to me! 

"The Scariest + Creepiest Chords AND How To Use Them"

(Signals Music Studio). 

 

Here's the pdf: https://bit.ly/32nJlvq

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/79/05/8a79050d31ba209316ec448f1711ad89.jpgImage Enlarger

Again, it's all about the HALF STEP interval! 

AND, how cool is the Chromatic Cluster Chord

...made from 2 half step intervals! 

Love this video also shows the Chord progressions!   

Chord Progressions for Improv Thread

- Emily 

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ABitRusty
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October 13, 2022 - 7:56 pm
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like 'em all @elcbk.  especially the first progression.

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ELCBK
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October 20, 2022 - 4:24 am
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These are the last creepy, scary, music examples I wanted to share that heavily rely on the half-step interval for tension and how it's dissonance in chords makes people feel uneasy. 

In he 1983 Cult Classic, "Videodrome" soundtrack, Howard Shore uses a lot of chromaticism & has some great motifs with other important intervals - maybe minor 3rds, minor 6ths, 5ths & more, I'll have to take a closer look, later - worth listening. 

Track titles in the video description.

 

The Quay Brothers are masters of stop motion film, drawing inspiration from Central & Eastern European puppeteers, writers & animators - they carefully control the way scenes are viewed.  The wikipedia link has a wonderful list of the Eastern European Composers they've chosen to work on their projects. 

Strings are prominent, with important (creepy) chromaticism - do you notice any other intervals that stand out?   

 

Here's 2 clips from the "Street of Crocodiles" (1986), inspired by a Bruno Schultz short story, with music by Polish composer Lech Jankowski - one of my favorites. 

Effective use of wavering intonation (kinda how I play 😁) and double stops near the end of this clip. 

Monster Greeting Emoticons- Emily

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ELCBK
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https://getwallpapers.com/wallpaper/full/7/e/b/167278.jpg

 

So, my question is this:

Do you find yourself thinking of & paying more attention to major intervals, than minor ones - when listening and practicing? 

 

😳  I have to admit, when I think "arpeggio" - I don't think of minor 3rds!  This is terrible, because I really love the emotional impact minor intervals have.

Here's some minor interval ear training I'm using to help me with recent horror/Halloween video discussions.  (Music Fluency)

Minor 3rds  

Tritone  (Augmented Fourth or Diminished Fifth)

Minor 6ths

Minor 7ths

Pumpkin Magically Change To 3 Bats Emoticons- Emily

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ELCBK
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October 24, 2022 - 9:27 pm
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I like a little dissonance - CREEPY!  

What is YOUR favorite intervals? 

 

- Emily

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ELCBK
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This is ridiculous, but after several years now - I'm STILL bothered by the Circle of 5ths chart intervals! 

Gol darn it, I STILL DON'T SEE how reading the chart counter-clockwise shows perfect 4ths! 

IT'S STILL THE SAME INTERVAL IN BOTH DIRECTIONS - it's either 4ths or 5th, depending on whether or not you count the note you start on! 

The actual interval is 7 semi-tones, or 3 Whole steps + 1 Half step (BOTH directions)! 

...I would love if anyone would care to try to convince me otherwise, because stuff like this could sour people on music theory! 

Pretty sure we've discussed this somewhere - I went back over the Key Signature Chart Thread (Circle of 5ths) & Time Signatures Thread, but didn't find any reference. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/fd/f7/2bfdf7f761ee8bbd63ecbb55cf8bd393.jpg

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Gordon Shumway
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November 17, 2022 - 6:41 am
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That wheel only illustrates the key sigs in fifths.

Different wheels will have a scale such as C D E F G A B C (on the outside, say, with sharps and flats on the inside)

C going upwards to G is a 5th (this is probably clockwise on such a wheel - count the notes CDEFG = 5)

C going downwards to G is a fourth (anti-clockwise on such a wheel - count the notes downwards CBAG = 4).

On a piano - C up to G is a fifth. C down to G is a fourth.

Once you understand this, all those wheels such as the one you posted will make sense.

Aaaargh, I lost my king status!

Andrew

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ELCBK
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November 17, 2022 - 9:39 am
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@Gordon Shumway -

Thank you!

I should've been more clear - I understand C down to G is a 4th, but all the 'Circle of 5ths' charts I've seen referenced to (when people talk about using the chart in both directions) is like the one I posted - it's 5ths in both directions!  

...which doesn't make sense - and is confusing when C goes down to F on the chart! 

I just think NO ONE should talk about perfect 4ths while talking about using this chart - everyone should keep the C↑G and C↓G concept set aside for a discussion on intervals, NOT the 'Circle of 5ths'! 

...but I see/hear it taught this way, everywhere I look. 

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Unfretted
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@ELCBK  

Forget about the Circle of Fifths!  It’s just a picture… and a new picture, at that. It is “NOT to scale” and that warning should have been included by the artist who originated this modern graphic with great artistic license.  It’s kind of like the ancient flash cards of  times tables, or more like a wall chart of times tables, a reference chart without an explanation of the underlying concepts. The Circle of Fifths pictorial did not exist in my world when I had my early music training.  Did this arise from the internet? (I think two linear graphics would be more apropos.)

The best way to eliminate the need for this graphic:

When you play your major scales, also practice your 3-note major arpeggios, the 1, 3, 5 notes, and say the name of each note out loud.  G major, G, B, D then D, B, G.  D major, D, F sharp, A then A, F sharp, D.  One-stop shopping.  You will learn better intonation, the major chords, the notes required for double stop chords, essential intervals, and sharps and flats (as opposed to this modern teaching tool of referring to naturals, flats, and sharps as low and high finger positions), plus ear training.

There, it’s now in your head and fingers for good.  Looking for the relative minor from the Circle of Fifths picture? Since you now have internalized your fifths, simply go up one step in your brain to the sixth. Voila! the relative minor.  The Perfect Fourth? There it is, in your brain and fingers, one step down from the fifth.  (So now we only have a few basic intervals left to complete the scale. Toggle up a step from your root, Do, to find the major second.  Toggle down a step from your root to find your commonly referred to seventh. Toggle down a half step from your root to find your major seventh.)  

This is an over simplification, and a great way to internalize the basics.  Once it’s second nature, the rest will unfold over time in manageable bites: minor intervals, augmented, diminished, more precise interval names, flavors of minors, etc.)

So let’s demystify the buggy graphic.  Play the open G string on the violin, then the open D string:  that’s an interval of a perfect fifth.  Now play an open open D string followed by the note G, third finger on the D string, which is of course a perfect fourth.  Play around with various approaches to these intervals.  It will make sense.  The best advice: the brilliant internet fiddle teacher Jason Kleinberg from FiddleHed always says to “Play your theory.”

Emily, I know that your knowledge is more advanced than much of what I’m explaining. I am not being condescending.  I am keeping it basic to reach any level of confused soul reeling from the looming “Circle of Fifths” who may stumble upon this post.

Cheers.

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Gordon Shumway
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November 17, 2022 - 9:58 am
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OK, maybe the answer is that that chart is just not a "circle of fifths" chart.

It is just a key sig chart that is arranged in fifths because key sigs are, by coincidence (or by a design that I can't bring to mind at the moment or rather suspect if I attempted to, it would muddy the water too much).

Going clockwise on it adds a sharp (equivalent to removing a flat) for each fifth.

Going counter-clockwise adds a flat (equivalent to removing a sharp) for each fifth.

Let's avoid consideration of non-ET systems.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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@Unfretted -

Thank you!  I agree.  

I hope this is a warning to beginners - they can run across this being confusing on the internet and in some YouTube videos. 

Btw, I think The Chord Wheel, I just posted about in the Chord Progressions for Improv Thread, is overall a much better aid & it still has a foundation in the Circle of 5ths. 

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ELCBK
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I've added my reply here, to a question Katie M had about intervals, because I wish I would have started this thread with this information, plus I have a question.

Back to my favorite Prof William Fitzpatrick's fingerboard & hand shapes video - his chart shows all half steps/semitones & accounts for shortening of interval distance on the fingerboard, moving closer to the bridge.  He also talks about the hand shapes & why they are important.

I think what can be confusing (at least it was for me) about Music Intervals is there are different ways of naming/describing intervals in music.

When we are taught to read music notation, the staff shows increments of semitones (space then line, etc...) - these are SCALE STEPS and easily relate to how a piano keyboard is laid out for CHROMATIC SCALES, in equal temperament tuning.  BUT, the violin is SO MUCH MORE than that!  This is why listening is so important, because music can be enhanced (or ruined 🤣) by squeezing or slightly lengthening intervals by Microtones (intervals less than a semitone). 

We want to relate music notation to what is played on a piano and other 'fixed-tune' instruments in Orchestras, but when DOUBLE STOPS become involved we like to tune our strings so they harmonize better - PERFECT FIFTHS (this is only one type of 'fifth').  This QUALITY & NUMBER is another naming scheme used in Western Music Theory, BUT there is also a difference between a 'perfect fifth' on the piano (Equal Temperament) and 'perfect fifth' tuning ratio on string instruments, which involves the Harmonic Series (Pure Tones and Overtones) and TIMBRE (Tonal Color/Quality). 

This is also where 'Expressive Intonation' comes into play, explained in the Violin Masterclass - Intonation: Expressive Intonation Video - the importance of 'high leading tones', 'higher major thirds' (slightly wider interval) and 'lower minor thirds' (slightly shorter interval). 

When playing in an Orchestra, Concert Pitch and tuning is used - string tuning is adjusted accordingly.  AndrewH explains about adjusting tuning for string ensembles/quartets, in post no. 19 of the Traditional Fiddle Intonation vs. Classical Violinist Intonation Thread:

Interesting that you mention it: the 2 cent offset for each perfect fifth is why violists and cellists do not actually tune to perfect fifths below the D string for ensemble playing. (This is something I learned relatively late, only a few years ago.) In the absence of a relatively pure interval such as an octave or a fifth, the human ear can perceive a pitch difference of about 6 cents. For the violin, that is fine, but for violists and cellists, tuning to perfect fifths results in a 6-cent offset from the tuning A for the C string, and an 8-cent offset from the violin E string.

 

Instead, when playing in ensembles, violists and cellists tune their C and G strings to "tight fifths" from the string above -- these are not equal temperament fifths, but in between perfect fifths and equal temperament fifths. The ear eventually learns the sound of that interval.

 

Now, I want to know if 'tuning for Concert orchestra', 'ensemble tuning', or if 'tuning in perfect fifths' has any bearing on the Timbre/Tonal Color of our 'open strings' - enough to be why a fourth fingered note would be preferred over playing an open string?  Or, is it only because open strings resonate too much more than fingered strings?  

...I'm just wondering if different tunings cause open strings to sound worse, and a perfect fifth is supposed to be the strongest interval (besides an octave), isn't it - even if fingered?  So a fingered fifth makes sense to me, if the strings are not tuned in perfect fifths. 

LOVE SOME DISCUSSION ON THIS! 🤗 

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RawT_haPyI8/UZ7aMJQiIJI/AAAAAAAAACQ/Qj538hk8zxQ/s1600/OWL+SET.jpg

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