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I was confused by a few time signatures I'd seen recently, but found this article easier to understand (soundbrenner) - helped clear things up for me.
Maybe this will help others, too. 🤗
Rhythm Basics, Beat, Measure, Meter, Time Signature, Tempo
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- Emily
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Excellent Emily, I have a headache now though. lol
Cant beat a sunny day
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@stringy - Yeah, me too - actually found some mistakes which probably gave us both headaches! 🤣
So, deleted & replaced it with much easier to understand info. 😊
Also, fabulous info at Wikipedia! This gets much more in depth with Time Signatures, but still easy to understand and sound bites to help identify the differences.
💥GREAT explanation of Complex Time Signatures, Mixed Meters and Additive Meters - especially interesting "metric time bends" used in Folk music!
Irrational Meters, Fractional beats and Mensural Time Signatures - worth mentioning, also.
I'm extremely interested in unique ways to notate Time Signatures for "complex patterns of stresses", because much of the Traditional Folk music notation I run across just doesn't help me understand it without a thorough investigation! ...maybe not even then. (lol)
People are guessing! And it's not just me. (lol) Well, 🤔 it could be a March, or a Strathspey, or a Purple People Eater... it was intended to be emphasized a specific way.
I realize Folk music was expected to be learned aurally, and Classical Composers probably felt more urgency to notate well for a large Orchestra. 🙄
Been frustrated for a while now, started to suspect there's better ways to help people tell the difference between a March, Reel and Strathspey on paper, other than a 4/4 time signature - especially when there's syncopation!
Just to get you thinking (this is definitely on my OWL🥰) - "Fingal's Cave", performed by Sammy Wetstein on Cello.
So, Strathspey or March?
.
I 💖 syncopation!
Yep, down the rabbit hole... not forgetting hemiola!
- Emily
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Consider also the two different ways to notate rhythm: by dividing beats or adding groups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ive_rhythm
Often, if the measure isn't divided into regular groups, the composer indicates where the stresses are placed by grouping notes visibly into longer and shorter "beats" on the page.
For example, in the 5/8 measure in the example at the top of the page, you know the rhythm is stressed 3+2 (and not 2+3) because the first three 8th notes are beamed together.
At the bottom of the page, you can also see how the two different approaches differ when notating the 3+3+2 rhythm that is common in many musical traditions. I've seen 8th notes beamed in groups of 3+3+2 while the time signature is printed as 4/4. A similar method is often used to show hemiolas without changing the time signature.
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sorta related. great video as always. has a section where he counts through sheet music to demonstrate.
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AndrewH said
Consider also the two different ways to notate rhythm: by dividing beats or adding groups.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ive_rhythm
Often, if the measure isn't divided into regular groups, the composer indicates where the stresses are placed by grouping notes visibly into longer and shorter "beats" on the page.
For example, in the 5/8 measure in the example at the top of the page, you know the rhythm is stressed 3+2 (and not 2+3) because the first three 8th notes are beamed together.
At the bottom of the page, you can also see how the two different approaches differ when notating the 3+3+2 rhythm that is common in many musical traditions. I've seen 8th notes beamed in groups of 3+3+2 while the time signature is printed as 4/4. A similar method is often used to show hemiolas without changing the time signature.
Speed affects perceived rhythm, though. I've got some Greek folk music with a 7/8 time sig and some bars are 4+3, others 3+4, randomly, but it's slow music, so you can count the quavers. When it's faster music, I'd hope the rhythm was more constant: when it's faster, you can feel the rhythm, and no counting needs to be done. When the distributions are random, getting that feel is harder.
Basically you have to tap your toe on the first and third of either a group of three or a group of 4. Exactly what the dancers do, I can't imagine!
Andrew
Verified human - the ignominy!
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@ABitRusty -
Thank you!
This was also covered in the Wikipedia "Time Signatures".
Like how your video explained Irrational Time Signatures as an easier way to notate metric modulation, how it helped the piece to run smoother - without emphasizing the changes.
I suspect these could be considered more in some Folk music - better than guessing. (lol)
@AndrewH -
I like how your link delved more into African Rhythms (Additive rhythm and Divisive rhythm).
.
Thank you!
The Wikipedia "Time Signatures" also covered Additive Rhythms.
My big gripe about Traditional Irish & Scottish Folk music is still, if it's possible to write the Time Signature as 3+2+3/8 instead of 4/4 - I believe, immediately (at a 1st glance) that would be EXTREMELY helpful!
There's also a video included there, of this 3+2+3/8 rhythm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ignature
I'm probably grasping at straws, but thinking that's close to what I'm playing for "Freemount ByPass", but it's been called a Reel - which is supposed to be a smooth 4/4. (lol)
If I'm even remotely close - or it's some other metric time bend, I'd really appreciate if someone could tell me if I'm way off track here.
It's also mentioned where metric time bending varies greatly, maybe choose to assign what appears close for the overall performance, because of style? A Bulgarian tune is given as an example.
Aksak (limping) rhythm is mentioned (maybe resort to more word labels?), and then I'm not so sure I agree with the statement, "Complex accentuation occurs in Western music, but as syncopation rather than as part of the metric accentuation." Is that true - maybe I took this out of context, referring to Classical Western music?
So, now my question (after looking at some of these) is there any better way to give a helpful "heads up", right at the time signature - for syncopation?
Think I feel there's a little frustration here, also - about Irish Rhythm Definitions. Note the author's opinion of "Reel Time". (lol)
https://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/
...not buying into the "but it's always been done that way" mindset. (lol)
- Emily
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ELCBK said
@ABitRusty -Thank you!
This was also covered in the Wikipedia "Time Signatures".
Like how your video explained Irrational Time Signatures as an easier way to notate metric modulation, how it helped the piece to run smoother - without emphasizing the changes.
I suspect these could be considered more in some Folk music - better than guessing. (lol)
@AndrewH -
I like how your link delved more into Divisive African Rhythms.
Thank you!
The Wikipedia "Time Signatures" also covered Additive Rhythms.
My big gripe about Traditional Irish & Scottish Folk music is still, if it's possible to write the Time Signature as 3+2+3/8 instead of 8/8 - I believe, immediately (at a 1st glance) that would be EXTREMELY helpful!
There's also a video included there, of this 3+2+3/8 rhythm and I'm thinking that's close to what I'm playing for "Freemount ByPass", but it's been called a Reel - which is supposed to be a smooth 4/4. (lol)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ignature
If I'm even remotely close - or it's some other metric time bend, I'd really appreciate if someone could tell me if I'm way off track here.
It's also mentioned where metric time bending varies greatly, maybe choose to assign what appears close for the overall performance, because of style? A Bulgarian tune is given as an example.
Aksak (limping) rhythm is mentioned (maybe resort to more word labels?), and then I'm not so sure I agree with the statement, "Complex accentuation occurs in Western music, but as syncopation rather than as part of the metric accentuation." Is that true - maybe I took this out of context, referring to Classical Western music?
So, now my question (after looking at some of these) is there any better way to give a helpful "heads up" right at the time signature - for syncopation?
Think I feel there's a little frustration here, also - about Irish Rhythm Definitions. Note the author's opinion of "Reel Time". (lol)
https://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/
...not buying into the "but it's always been done that way" mindset. (lol)
- Emily
first off thats a great site! bookmarked it
so on syncopatetd question...im probably wrong but speaking in terms of trad stuff..when i hear a reel or whatever being played and the musician plays something that sounds syncopated i usually wonder if its not just particular to what that player is doing with that tune at a given time. one tune that comes to mind that has that feel built in is the b part of franks reel i think it is..but i may be missing the definition here so hopefully can have some leeway as a discussion point. in general ive kinda chalked alot of that kinda stuff as a stylistic thing. again probably not thinking in same terms..as far as how to notate it.. how would you notate swing and the amount? i know in notation you can add it as a % but even then it sounds like midi notes.
i know your over on fiddlevideo... have you looked at this full lesson?
i usually have to hear a tune and then use sheet music for remembering until it sticks. i think what i use the time signature for is a quick "tune type" or at least an initial sorting what it could be. all my 4/4's usually come out sounding the same anyway lol a too fast hornpipe or a too slow reel..
thank you for the tooic and shared info! especially that last site. LOTS of info there.
******ADDITION ADDED LATER BELOW
see this is why i look forward to your post..gets the brain turnin and cant shake the topic...lol
found this..it may be interesting
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oh ...as far as freemount bypass... isnt that an original by that group? that may explain the not exactly reel feel to it and more of a mix of different styles. my thoughts...not facts.
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@ABitRusty -
Thanx!
Freemount Bypass is original, but look at how it was transcribed at The Session.😖
Your video is good, except we're back digging again - NO indication of syncopation in the Time Signature - for a head's up!
Isn't that what a Time Signature is supposed to be there for?
Maybe there's different views about what's important for notation - depending what instrument a musician plays?
Are they all afraid we'll freak out if we see an unusual, but more accurate, Time Signature?
Maybe any notation outside of the ordinary was frowned upon? Guess these tunes were meant for the "ordinary man". Not simple to play, though!
It would be great if musicians who transcribe or arrange would put the extra effort into it - try/learn to better notate intended style for tunes! If it's possible, why not?
References are important - hope there will always be some strict followers of tradition, but still think it's great to put a little of our soul into what we play - treasures worth archiving, too. 😊
...except, NOT MINE... yet! 🥴
This is still all a lot to take in.
- Emily
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"Freemount Bypass is orginal, but look at how it was transcribed at thesession"
ive seen it.. the poster added also that he did in Em and tune was originally in F/Fm .. the session is basically like this forum in that its different people contributing and (guilty) may not always be accurate...but the effort is there and even a little can be helpful. i think thats the only version over there btw. I think sheet music for folk type tunes is more of a suggestion anyway. i understand your point though. from what ive seen Scottish transcriptions come closer to what actually is played. again, my take on it and probably why it looks so difficult..not that it isnt but i think notating out exactly every ornament and trying to convey exactly the feel of folk tunes may make them overly busy for my eyes at least. i like the bare bones..I would appreciate more bowing and slur notations especially of a particular players style. but youll rarely find them spelled out. i think that gets back to the overall learn by ear thing thats stressed alot. I can do that some...im a mix of ear and sheet music. i bought an old time tune book not too long ago that has all the biggest "hits" of some of the more well known older ..like the ones current stars learned from...fiddlers. its great..lots of history and very thourough on the notation..to a point its beyond me at this point. im sure if i really focused i would eventually get there but by that time i may have been able by ear to get a reasonable version worked up. thats a general observation..lol.. not suggesting i could. I really get your frustration though..just not sure how it can be done exactly.
have you went to the website for Sharon Shannon and reached out to her? you may be surprised and get some pointers and possibly even their sheet music for it..or a direction to where it is.
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@ABitRusty -
Yep, it would be interesting to see how Jim Murray and Dezi Donnelly originally notated Freemount Bypass, but otherwise too late for me to care (I'm not changing what I've been playing by ear 😆). At least I'm playing in the original keys.
That was a great Kevin Burke video!
I vaguely remember watching this when I 1st got my Mortimer, but it was a little early for me to care about anything more than notes or where my bow was going... actually, things haven't changed that much. (lol) (PS.- not true, I don't want to discourage anyone new here)
Well, nice to hear him say something along the line of he never heard a Reel played in 4/4 Time! 😁
Ha! He said a Hornpipe had "swagger", also... must be true!
This is a good topic. I used to think a "Slip Jig" and a "Slide" were the same - didn't really matter to me earlier, just played what I heard.
What are those odd Slip Jigs he was talking about (going to have to go back over that)? Burke said how they're different, but didn't mention any names of tunes! Maybe I'll have to ask...
Love it - probably ALL the players we look up to know these tunes need more accurate Time Signatures! Guess by the time they've figured it out & learned to play it, nobody thinks about changing anything.
...a little more swagger!
- Emily
Btw, after listening to Kevin Burke - doesn't it seem like 3+2+3 all over 8 could work for a Reel? Instead of 8/8?
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Btw, after listening to Kevin Burke - doesn't it seem like 3+2+3 all over 8 could work for a Reel? Instead of 8/8?
@elcbk what makes sense to me and what ill stick with, even though i may not express it in my playing all the time, im working on that! i know i have more to do there.. 
REEL- set a metronome to beat half notes ( 2 clicks per measure of 4/4) if the measure has 8 eighth notes the 1st and 5th eighth note should get more emphasis. or you could think of 4 quarter notes and tap foot on 1&3 and thats the beat. Youll get carried away if trying to count 1,2,3,4 for reels. 2 taps or beats a measure works and feels more relaxed. im sure theres deeper thoughts and technique especially with off beats and how to play around with those, but i gotta think like this to keep it straight for now. 8/8 was another way used to exain it..but grouped in 4's .. idk..4/4 but two taps a measure seems easier.
HORNPIPE-set metronome to beat quarter notes (4 beats per measure) if measure has 8 eighth notes every other eighth note gets a little more umph..over simplification im sure but keeps it straight as a base for me.
jigs- havent seemed to be too bad but i havent been getting into the whole single/heavy/hop/double definitions so im playing all 6/8's as a double jig i think as it was mentioned..in the variations wiki link earlier above somewhere.. Im pretty confident my feel on the ones i play is correct. I havent played for a dance so no feedback from that front. it varies how i set a beat..sometimes ill just play to it clicking 2 per measure and each click gets the ummph..or sometimes to a drum track.
slip jigs..pretty much same but with extra beat per measure..but..idk..doesnt 1,2,3 /1,2,3/1,2,3 work as well as anything? to be honest i havent heard many i like so meh..ill do my best for class and get to the other stuff. bad attitude i know. itll pay to get them correct, everyone seems to like the butterfly so ..yeah
mazurkas/slides/flings all that other stuff havent done unless i did and played it wrong which circles back around to your original topic huh? lol
havent seen the 3+2+3 stuff until today. ill have to read again..and watch more about it. learned something today! ...just how it fits for me and all i have to digest. i think the cut time approach for reels works.. more relaxed.
****EDIT FOLLOWS***
so on the 3 +3 +2 are you speaking of 3 up slur 3 down and 1 up 1 down ( detache i think is correct term..not spell checking)
if so yes ive tried that for reels and feels wonky for me but i think thats what alot of the smooth players do..Mr. Burke said thats what he normally does. so if thats what youre speaking of TO ME it seems like it should be in the bowing category to simplify the whole time signature thing discussion. thats probably an incorrect assumption on my part. probably because i havent spent enough time trying it.
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@stringy -
Need help! Kevin Burke talks of a town or area of Southwest Ireland - sounds out like "schleeve lucra", but I can't find anything similar. Gaelic? Know of it, or can you take a guess?
@ABitRusty -
I was only thinking (3+2+3) over 8 for only "Freemount Bypass" - just trying to figure out the syncopation I feel, since Burke says Reels should be 8/8.
Here's what I got from Burke:
Reel - 8/8 Even rhythm - strong, weak, strong, weak, etc... You loose any swing or swagger because of speed.
Hornpipe - 12/8 Swagger rhythm - long (dotted), short, long (dotted), short, etc... He says people write it in 4/4 (you're just expected to play 1st & 3rd swung), instead of 12/8, cause "it's a little bit difficult on the eye, hard to see all those dots". (lol)
Double Jig - 6/8 Groups of 3 notes. Swing comes from slur onto the heavy/little longer 1st (4th), and the shuffle of the weak/short 2nd (5th) with normal 3rd (6th).
Slip Jig - 9/8 Like Double, but with 3 main beats. Ends with the "slip" from the much longer 3rd main beat, which is a quarter note (7th+8th) - then an eighth (9th)
Slide (Jig) - 12/8 Like the Slip Jig with an extra quarter & eighth note "slip" added at the end.
Odd Slip Jig - 9/8 Southwest Ireland, but emphasis on the 1st (4th, 7th) and 3rd (5th, 8th) notes. Sounds syncopated - he plays part of one (I like & sounds familiar) but doesn't mention the name!
Polka - 2/4 or 4/4 Emphasis on the off beat every once in a while (but, not all the time). He says you decide within a stroke where you want to do this - just wish he'd gone over & laid out an example.
Just to blow yer mind -
type in a search for just "Cooley's" at
https://www.irishtune.info/sea.....type=any
- Emily
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@ELCBK - Don't know if this might be it, it isn't SW Ireland, but is SW County Donegal.
"Sliabh Liag, sometimes Slieve League or Slieve Liag, is a mountain on the Atlantic coast of County Donegal, Ireland."
The old curmudgeon!
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"
Just to blow yer mind -
type in a search for just "Cooley's" "
@elcbk are you talking about the number of and different tune types?
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@ELCBK It’s between cork and Kerry.
Cant beat a sunny day
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@stringy -
Great, but is it a town or a general area? Help me out with the spelling?
@JohnG -
Thanks, but listened to those pronunciations - they were not it.
@ABitRusty -
Yep! A few more & different than I expected.
Still trying to figure out why "Freemount Bypass" is written (at thesession.org) in 8/8 but has a time signature written 4/4. And, there's a whole part missing! Think the structure is actually AAB, CCB, CCB. I'm still hearing some measures with odd beats - will have to see if I can transcribe what I hear sometime.
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ELCBK said
@stringy -Great, but is it a town or a general area? Help me out with the spelling?
@JohnG -
Thanks, but listened to those pronunciations - they were not it.
@ABitRusty -
Yep! A few more & different than I expected.
Still trying to figure out why "Freemount Bypass" is written (at thesession.org) in 8/8 but has a time signature written 4/4. And, there's a whole part missing! Think the structure is actually AAB, CCB, CCB. I'm still hearing some measures with odd beats - will have to see if I can transcribe what I hear sometime.
thus is gonna sound ridiculous but accordians/concertinas playing sometimes mess me up when trying to hear the fiddle. maybe something like that going on. its like theres ghost ryhthms going on sometimes. all i got..
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Sliabh luachra, there’s a full page on Wikipedia about it, I have never been there myself, may nip over to Cork this year though. I do know that the people of the goddess were supposed to have lived there at one time, In English it means mountain rushes, big area of land, it’s basically a district, in the same way as the English Lake District.
Cant beat a sunny day
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