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ABitRusty
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September 13, 2021 - 8:16 pm
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Really don't want to lose the focus of this thread. 

I genuinely want to understand everything about music that sounds like it has unusual timing - especially Fiddle Tunes. 

Desperately looking for more examples of these tunes - and someone who can describe the unusual features

Anyone know anything specific about other 'Odd Time', syncopated or 'Crooked' FIDDLE tunes?

I responded about the notation point or question you had.  said that earlier so apologies for chiming in on the wrong part of that post.

 

when playing crooked tunes just think ahead of time...measure "X" will have an extra beat and dont cheat it. you wont really notice so much playing alone..throw other fiddlers and ezpecially a rhythm player in the mix and it will be rushed.  

1. identify the measure(s) with extra beat

2. dont cheat it... 

cant speak on other than  crooked old time fiddle tunes ( farewell to trion always comes to mind ) but its usually a measure or two..its not like every other measure has changed..so its not too hard to find where it is.  if what youre listening to has a bass player, try concentrating there initially instead of fiddle if youre trying by ear from a recording to figure out beats.

on the other hand you could always experiment by doing something like this tongue  make a known tune crooked.  never thought about it or did intentionally but may help working backwards from a standard 4/4 and see what you come up with.

EDIT**

@elcbk there was a thread on another forum that talked alot about and gave many examples but couldnt find what i saw.  i DID find this on mandolin cafe thats useful.  elk river blues and maybe forked deer ( not 100%) have an extra beat here/there depending.  Think somewhere in this thread metis style is mentioned so that maybe where youre coming from due to recent metis style finds?  im trying to think of an irish tune example but none come to mind ( which doesnt mean much given my level wink )  someone said that an extra part like a 3rd part makes crooked but I dont know if i understand that angle...if its an even number of beats that matches other sections it would still come out counting even.  

https://www.mandolincafe.com/f.....oked-tunes

maybe something helpful.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Hey, thanks - the mandolin link lists some potentially crooked Old Time tunes I can try to check out! 

Yes, there's definitely a lot of 'Crooked' Canadian Tunes. 

I saw the George Wilson video, but blew it off because he didn't explain anything - just 'chucked a few extra notes in', maybe cut a phrase short a couple times for "Jingle Bells".  BUT, what if I ran across someone playing a tune I never heard before, and they 'chucked in extra notes' & dropped a couple others off - would I be able to tell where?  Probably not.

I'd like to think I could tell if a phrase was cut short by a measure, but not so sure I could tell if a measure was added - like in Eleanor Rigby, I might think it's just natural!  Well, maybe not in an Irish tune. (lol) 

Skipping or adding beats in a measure might not completely throw me for a loop, depending on how many beats & in which measure (or measures) in the phrase.  

Some composers make oddities work so well! 

Maybe I secretly want to turn Fiddle tunes into Pop! 🤣 

These rhythms are complex, but they don’t always seem that way to us, because we’re used to them, and because we often don’t need complex tools to appreciate and emulate them. If we, say, hear a modulation we like, we need to understand how it works in order to apply it to our own music. But if we hear a rhythm we like, perhaps the best way to learn from it is simply to imitate it.

Rhythm: Syncopation, Polyrhythm and Tempo Changes - Pop Grammar

If I think I hear 'syncopation', it then becomes hard to tell if I hear anything else contributing to a possible irregular meter.

 

Darn if Liz Carroll didn't specify there's NO ornaments, time or bowing indicated anywhere in her 1st Collection!  Maybe the same for her 2nd, but wasn't mentioned. 😕 

- Emily 

 

PS. was just trying to keep things on track - no big deal. 😊

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ABitRusty
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 But if we hear a rhythm we like, perhaps the best way to learn from it is simply to imitate it.

its worked that way for others for a long time...so yeah probably a good way to learn

 

BUT, what if I ran across someone playing a tune I never heard before, and they 'chucked in extra notes' & dropped a couple others off - would I be able to tell where?  Probably not.

i agree there because as far as beats go its closer to being square.  unless youre talking about dropping off a half note and adding eighth.  

If we, say, hear a modulation we like, we need to understand how it works in order to apply it to our own music.

i dont agree there so much..i think this ties into the first thing.  i dont think we need to be music theory scholars to come up with and/or play fiddle tunes.  im pretty sure the tunes youre talking about (fiddle) were written by those that didnt have access to polyrhythm youtube instruction.  It could help knowing alot of the theory going on in a tune..but sometimes theres the paralysis by analsysis effect.  all that said... i love reading and learning music theory topics like this.  Im just saying it could get in the way of just playing if trying to make sure that some theory topic is applied correctly.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty (& Anyone else willing to help!) -

I'm trying not to get paralanalysitosis, but I'm probably prone to it with my impatience. (lol) 

Working on "Nuit Sauvage", performed by La Bottine Souriante - it's a 3 part Reel.  Thought there was something fishy going on with the meter, but when I slowed it way down to count - I got just straight 4/4, but the strong beat starts to switch to the 3rd in the 2nd repeat.   Geez, I didn't check to see if it ended up back on the 1st beat when the tune was played the 3rd time, etc...

I know you're busy, but can you tell me if I'm hearing this right? 

Btw, I know La Bottine Souriante puts their own twist on tunes - and I'm definitely learning their version!  I don't believe they're playing 2 tunes, just one with variation... but I could be wrong.

Nuit Sauvage - La Bottine Souriante

After the 1st time it's played, 🤔... pretty sure I hear 4 beats added after the end (maybe a measure of lead in?), before La Bottine Souriante starts the tune repeat, but the A Part is NEW (starts on G in video) - and the tempo speeds up a bit, then same B & C part with the whole Tune (plus NEW A part). 

Forgot to say that the extra beats start at 0:58, again at 1:50 & 2:41 and the New A part (which is repeated) starts right on 1:00 (which now hitting as a 3rd Beat, instead of being on the 1st!) again at 1:52 &2:43 - so the whole tune is played thru 4 times

First I thought maybe the 2nd time through they just added syncopation to the A part (along with tempo change), but the notes are definitely different... aren't they?  

For comparison:

Nuit-Sauvage-Michel-Bordeleau.jpgImage Enlarger

...am I losing the battle with paralanalysitosis here? 

Help... can anyone hear this? 

 

The identical sheet music at thesession.org says 4/4 time!

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk ypu always find the most interesting tunes!  i really REALLY like this and it sounds like a fun tune to try and play...ill agree sounds crooked on last part going back to start ..only think its coming out of last measure of last part though.. when it speeds up it sounds like chordal backup audio is reversed too...literally!  layered with melody..lol.. at least till b part starts. once the sped up version starts you can keep time better with the horns..they sound like they are playing on beat.  i found myself tapping around 90pm on intial slower part and around 110 on faster part..which fell pretty much with horns..and when that last measure hits going back to A youll wanna jump a beat if not ready.  what ypu getting?

sheet music at glance doesnt look right on the last part.   gonna investigate more when get time..still tied up on project.  havent really practiced for almost month now lol.. gettin close though.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty - 

Take your time - I'll be pluggin' away at this for a while. 🤪 

Think I'll be playing this at .5 speed for a very long time - after I finish gettin' all the notes down to memorize!

Shoot, forgot to say that the extra beats start at 0:58, again at 1:50 & 2:41 and the New A part (which is repeated) starts right on 1:00 (which now hitting as a 3rd Beat, instead of being on the 1st!) again at 1:52 &2:43 - so the whole tune is played thru 4 times (will edit prev post). 

Didn't look at BPM, was only concerned if I could count 4 Beats per measure. 

Listened again - New A part definitely starts with it's strong beat on the 3rd, instead of the 1st.  Maybe this is not a big deal anymore, because...

Just realized the sheet music I posted says 2/4 time!  Same version at thesession.org shows 4/4.

Also, there's definitely an odd Shuffle rhythm in the C parts - so, am I hearing syncopation in the New A part, odd/longer C part Phrasing, or just extra notes?

 

 

...still inflicted - paralanalysitosis. 🤣

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk.. i. still needing to record a critter tune and annies song.. yeah reality is i probably wont try playing this anytime soon.. but i definately like it and gonna try and download from amazon music.  i need to listen closer i guess..really only hearing that last measure before starting back to beginning thats different beat wise.  and the whole thing felt left right left right or 1 , 3 ,1 , 3 on beat..  so i just figured 4/4 but felt cut time if makes sense.   the odd feeling  beat could just be last measure rolling back into pickup measure.  once it picks up pace it actually fells more square the longer i listened. if 4/4 that 105 to 110 would be doubled bpm the way i was counting.  try with fingers when it starts...thinking 1 3 1 3  instead of 1,2,3,4. see if it feels different that way.

great example!!  nice one...so tell me the story on how you stumbled on this lol!  

thinking crested hens, or swallowtail, or delvvanys goat, or one thats got otter in its name for the critter tune.  maybe that lark tune.. saddle the pony?? pigeon on gate..( nope)  dang i need a fiddle fix

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ELCBK
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Fiddle Hell → Lisa Ornstein → La Bottine Souriante! 

After playing La Bottine Souriante's version of "Nuit Sauvage" for a few days now, I'm still thinking this should at least be written up with a different Time Signature for the "C" part. 

https://cdn4.iconfinder.com/data/icons/emoji-sketchy/60/009_-_Evil-emoji-eyebrows-scowl-emoticon-grin-512.png

← my new "Mad Scientist" emoji. (lol) 

Shorter note value more dominant, rhythm change & possible odd measure in there but I'm still too wrapped up in just playing it to be able to wrap my head around anything more, yet.  

 

...Rocky Horror!  🤗

- Emily

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I've finally had a chance to learn about some Japanese Composers and found Takashi Yoshimatsu, who has some short pieces I like that are full of Time Changes!   I think seeing/hearing sheet music examples of TIME CHANGE, like this, is very helpful!  

These piano 'Dances' could be GREAT 'Classical' Fiddle Tunes!  Most are only 1-2 minutes in length. 🤗

"Pleiades Dances IX"

The 4th IS SO BEAUTIFUL - I LOVE IT!  "Lullaby in Celestial Night" only changes between 3/4 and 5/8 time. 

 

According to Wikipedia, Yoshimatsu wrote 9 Opus of 'Pleiades Dances' - 7 interchangeable dances/movements in each Opus - 63 total!  The total works are divided into 3 books.  Originally all written for piano, the 7 movements of the 2nd Opus were also arranged for Violin, Flute & Piano. 

  • All have Time Changes, some more radical! 
  • Some are Modal! 
  • Names like: "Canticle of Quiet Rain", "Interlude with a Hymn", "Waltz in Obtuse Angle", "Liquid Invention" - have piqued my interest!

Nice to know that back in the mid-late 70's, Yoshimatsu was fascinated by the same progressive Rock Groups/Bands that I was - he's definitely got my attention. 🥰

Going to take me quite a while to check them ALL out!  

🤔... will I find a treasure? 

- Emily

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'Common' Time = 4/4, 'Cut' Time = 2/2, but what about 'Free' Time? 

Warning!: Nearing Halloween! 

Erik Satie, the French Composer, coined the term "Gnossiennes" for his hauntingly beautiful Piano pieces that were 'free' of Time Signatures and bar divisions.  They were experimental in form, rhythm and chordal Structure. (Wikipedia) 

I LOVE this Violin version of the 1st Gnossienne, performed by Anna KonoplyovaFive minutes long.

Here you can see exactly what is on the sheet music, even though it has NO time signature or bar divisions!  I'm just assuming this is in Fm.

AND, because Halloween will be here before you know it, one more version described as: "Satie's introspection meets Deconstructivist irony.  Here is the most ethereal, contrite and disturbing version of Gnossienne you can imagine..." 

 

 

This is so COOL! 

...going to have to learn this! 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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Gnossienne is a really beautiful tune @elcbk.  thanks for sharing that!  have not heard before but I relate it to a horror movie theme or drama.  something maybe with a 19th century setting.... or one that flashes back to an older time.

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@ABitRusty -

I might have to try to play it sounding creepy like the theremin in the Decostruttori Postmodernisti video. 

 

Oops! 

Almost forgot there was a great thread that BillyG started a while back - on 'Time Changes'. 

Mixed Time Signatures Thread

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk have ylu seen his latest video? 

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Way TOO COOL! 😎 

No, hadn't seen this. 

Indifference Interval - Gånglåt was the 1st thing that came to mind. 🙄

Soooo amazing, how our brains try to find patterns in everything. 

Explains our discussion on tempo for the 2021 FM GP - hovering around 100 BPM!

Thanks! 

 

'Liminal' - me, with my walker. 🤣 

...curiosity stream, & now nebula - ad free... so nice.

- Emily

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AndrewH said
Consider also the two different ways to notate rhythm: by dividing beats or adding groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ive_rhythm

Often, if the measure isn't divided into regular groups, the composer indicates where the stresses are placed by grouping notes visibly into longer and shorter "beats" on the page. 

For example, in the 5/8 measure in the example at the top of the page, you know the rhythm is stressed 3+2 (and not 2+3) because the first three 8th notes are beamed together. 

At the bottom of the page, you can also see how the two different approaches differ when notating the 3+3+2 rhythm that is common in many musical traditions. I've seen 8th notes beamed in groups of 3+3+2 while the time signature is printed as 4/4. A similar method is often used to show hemiolas without changing the time signature. 

OMG! TWO YEARS have just gone by in the blink of an eye!  So much GREAT info in this thread!  

I'm still very interested in these meters - any new perspective helps me think outside 'the box'.  Also been trying to reinforce what I've learned, little by little. 

Found a great video that made me think about "Additive Meter"!  Not exactly a fiddle tune (unless you want it to be one!), but figured quite a few people might be familiar with it. 

 

I have also learned more about Hemiolas (horizontal and vertical), because of Flamenco music!  Flamenco Rhythm Thread - Post #10  

Thanks Andrew! 🤗

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ELCBK
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Okay, HUGE question pertaining to my general understanding... 

I'm thinking 'Additive Meter' is linear vs 'Polymeter' is vertical - but, if 'Polymeter' is actually layered (one on top of another as played), then are 'Additive Meter' and 'Polymeter' the same thing?  

 

Polymeter 

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ABitRusty
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:44. me watching

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AndrewH
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ELCBK said
 

I'm thinking 'Additive Meter' is linear vs 'Polymeter' is vertical - but, if 'Polymeter' is actually layered (one on top of another as played), then are 'Additive Meter' and 'Polymeter' the same thing?  

  

Not at all. In polymeter, the shortest repeating unit is the least common multiple of the two measure lengths. In additive meter, the repeating unit is simply the sum of the all the smaller parts.

Also, "layered" and "vertical" are basically the same thing: the different meters are heard in different voices (which does not necessarily mean different instruments).

I suppose you can write a polymeter as an additive meter, but it would be overly complicated and not really helpful to the performer. For example, in a 3/4 and 4/4 polymeter the effect for the listener would be something like:

3+1+2+2+1+3

But from the performer's perspective it's simpler to treat each voice separately and simply write one voice in three and the other in four.

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@AndrewH -  

THANK YOU!

Again my fault, I didn't really express what I was actually trying to get at, but think you answered my question.   Just not sure if it means yes, or no. (lol)

Sorry, let me see if I can be more clear... getting some sleep does me wonders.

If 2 identical instruments played a 'polymeter' together, so it's heard as one, it would be notated in a linear/horizontal way.  Could a 'polymeter' look like an 'Additive Meter' in that case? 

I ask because I think 'polymeters' sound syncopated to me, but the example of 'Additive Rhythm' (3, 3, 2) in the "Walking Dead Theme" video sure didn't!

 

Since Polyrhythm & Polymeter are 2 different things, aren't 'Additive Meter' & 'Additive Rhythm' different?  I question, because I've seen where 8/8 = (3, 3, 2) have been called both. 

And, does 8/8 ALWAYS have to mean a beat grouping combination of 3's and one 2? 

Is 'Asymmetrical Meter' the same as 'Additive Meter'?

 

...I've also been wondering how 'Crooked' Fiddle tunes might fit into this conversation. 

I'm not sure if there's a real consensus on whether or not they have both extra measures and/or extra (or less) beats to some measures (I've seen both) - but I know they have more than 32 beats in at least 1 part.  This in itself doesn't mean much to me, probably because I haven't dealt with any backing for one - just seems like more of a good thing. (lol)  

I've seen 'Crooked' tunes notated with more than one time signature, but also in just 4/4 or 2/4.  Since there's some very syncopated pieces in 2/4, like ragtime - makes me think I could have some real fun with these, but can't say I've heard them played with any.  

 

@ABitRusty -

Found a good sized discussion, with examples of Crooked Tunes at The Session & André Brunet has mentioned (in a video) them having more measures than standard, more than 32 beats in a part.  Wish I would've asked more questions during Fiddle Hell! 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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Elcbk said.."Found a good sized discussion, with examples of Crooked Tunes at The Session & André Brunet has mentioned (in a video) them having more measures than standard, more than 32 beats in a part.  Wish I would've asked more questions during Fiddle Hell"

theyll have extra beat(s)  I think I can see that.  are you saying the extra beat(s) gets its own measure?

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