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iFIDDLE
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September 13, 2021 - 8:16 pm
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Really don't want to lose the focus of this thread. 

I genuinely want to understand everything about music that sounds like it has unusual timing - especially Fiddle Tunes. 

Desperately looking for more examples of these tunes - and someone who can describe the unusual features

Anyone know anything specific about other 'Odd Time', syncopated or 'Crooked' FIDDLE tunes?

I responded about the notation point or question you had.  said that earlier so apologies for chiming in on the wrong part of that post.

 

when playing crooked tunes just think ahead of time...measure "X" will have an extra beat and dont cheat it. you wont really notice so much playing alone..throw other fiddlers and ezpecially a rhythm player in the mix and it will be rushed.  

1. identify the measure(s) with extra beat

2. dont cheat it... 

cant speak on other than  crooked old time fiddle tunes ( farewell to trion always comes to mind ) but its usually a measure or two..its not like every other measure has changed..so its not too hard to find where it is.  if what youre listening to has a bass player, try concentrating there initially instead of fiddle if youre trying by ear from a recording to figure out beats.

on the other hand you could always experiment by doing something like this tongue  make a known tune crooked.  never thought about it or did intentionally but may help working backwards from a standard 4/4 and see what you come up with.

EDIT**

@elcbk there was a thread on another forum that talked alot about and gave many examples but couldnt find what i saw.  i DID find this on mandolin cafe thats useful.  elk river blues and maybe forked deer ( not 100%) have an extra beat here/there depending.  Think somewhere in this thread metis style is mentioned so that maybe where youre coming from due to recent metis style finds?  im trying to think of an irish tune example but none come to mind ( which doesnt mean much given my level wink )  someone said that an extra part like a 3rd part makes crooked but I dont know if i understand that angle...if its an even number of beats that matches other sections it would still come out counting even.  

https://www.mandolincafe.com/f.....oked-tunes

maybe something helpful.

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ELCBK
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September 14, 2021 - 1:10 am
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@iFIDDLE -

Hey, thanks - the mandolin link lists some potentially crooked Old Time tunes I can try to check out! 

Yes, there's definitely a lot of 'Crooked' Canadian Tunes. 

I saw the George Wilson video, but blew it off because he didn't explain anything - just 'chucked a few extra notes in', maybe cut a phrase short a couple times for "Jingle Bells".  BUT, what if I ran across someone playing a tune I never heard before, and they 'chucked in extra notes' & dropped a couple others off - would I be able to tell where?  Probably not.

I'd like to think I could tell if a phrase was cut short by a measure, but not so sure I could tell if a measure was added - like in Eleanor Rigby, I might think it's just natural!  Well, maybe not in an Irish tune. (lol) 

Skipping or adding beats in a measure might not completely throw me for a loop, depending on how many beats & in which measure (or measures) in the phrase.  

Some composers make oddities work so well! 

Maybe I secretly want to turn Fiddle tunes into Pop! 🤣 

These rhythms are complex, but they don’t always seem that way to us, because we’re used to them, and because we often don’t need complex tools to appreciate and emulate them. If we, say, hear a modulation we like, we need to understand how it works in order to apply it to our own music. But if we hear a rhythm we like, perhaps the best way to learn from it is simply to imitate it.

Rhythm: Syncopation, Polyrhythm and Tempo Changes - Pop Grammar

If I think I hear 'syncopation', it then becomes hard to tell if I hear anything else contributing to a possible irregular meter.

 

Darn if Liz Carroll didn't specify there's NO ornaments, time or bowing indicated anywhere in her 1st Collection!  Maybe the same for her 2nd, but wasn't mentioned. 😕 

- Emily 

 

PS. was just trying to keep things on track - no big deal. 😊

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September 14, 2021 - 8:44 am
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 But if we hear a rhythm we like, perhaps the best way to learn from it is simply to imitate it.

its worked that way for others for a long time...so yeah probably a good way to learn

 

BUT, what if I ran across someone playing a tune I never heard before, and they 'chucked in extra notes' & dropped a couple others off - would I be able to tell where?  Probably not.

i agree there because as far as beats go its closer to being square.  unless youre talking about dropping off a half note and adding eighth.  

If we, say, hear a modulation we like, we need to understand how it works in order to apply it to our own music.

i dont agree there so much..i think this ties into the first thing.  i dont think we need to be music theory scholars to come up with and/or play fiddle tunes.  im pretty sure the tunes youre talking about (fiddle) were written by those that didnt have access to polyrhythm youtube instruction.  It could help knowing alot of the theory going on in a tune..but sometimes theres the paralysis by analsysis effect.  all that said... i love reading and learning music theory topics like this.  Im just saying it could get in the way of just playing if trying to make sure that some theory topic is applied correctly.

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ELCBK
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September 14, 2021 - 4:44 pm
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@iFIDDLE (& Anyone else willing to help!) -

I'm trying not to get paralanalysitosis, but I'm probably prone to it with my impatience. (lol) 

Working on "Nuit Sauvage", performed by La Bottine Souriante - it's a 3 part Reel.  Thought there was something fishy going on with the meter, but when I slowed it way down to count - I got just straight 4/4, but the strong beat starts to switch to the 3rd in the 2nd repeat.   Geez, I didn't check to see if it ended up back on the 1st beat when the tune was played the 3rd time, etc...

I know you're busy, but can you tell me if I'm hearing this right? 

Btw, I know La Bottine Souriante puts their own twist on tunes - and I'm definitely learning their version!  I don't believe they're playing 2 tunes, just one with variation... but I could be wrong.

Nuit Sauvage - La Bottine Souriante

After the 1st time it's played, 🤔... pretty sure I hear 4 beats added after the end (maybe a measure of lead in?), before La Bottine Souriante starts the tune repeat, but the A Part is NEW (starts on G in video) - and the tempo speeds up a bit, then same B & C part with the whole Tune (plus NEW A part). 

Forgot to say that the extra beats start at 0:58, again at 1:50 & 2:41 and the New A part (which is repeated) starts right on 1:00 (which now hitting as a 3rd Beat, instead of being on the 1st!) again at 1:52 &2:43 - so the whole tune is played thru 4 times

First I thought maybe the 2nd time through they just added syncopation to the A part (along with tempo change), but the notes are definitely different... aren't they?  

For comparison:

Nuit-Sauvage-Michel-Bordeleau.jpgImage Enlarger

...am I losing the battle with paralanalysitosis here? 

Help... can anyone hear this? 

 

The identical sheet music at thesession.org says 4/4 time!

- Emily

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September 14, 2021 - 5:52 pm
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@elcbk ypu always find the most interesting tunes!  i really REALLY like this and it sounds like a fun tune to try and play...ill agree sounds crooked on last part going back to start ..only think its coming out of last measure of last part though.. when it speeds up it sounds like chordal backup audio is reversed too...literally!  layered with melody..lol.. at least till b part starts. once the sped up version starts you can keep time better with the horns..they sound like they are playing on beat.  i found myself tapping around 90pm on intial slower part and around 110 on faster part..which fell pretty much with horns..and when that last measure hits going back to A youll wanna jump a beat if not ready.  what ypu getting?

sheet music at glance doesnt look right on the last part.   gonna investigate more when get time..still tied up on project.  havent really practiced for almost month now lol.. gettin close though.

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September 14, 2021 - 9:09 pm
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@iFIDDLE - 

Take your time - I'll be pluggin' away at this for a while. 🤪 

Think I'll be playing this at .5 speed for a very long time - after I finish gettin' all the notes down to memorize!

Shoot, forgot to say that the extra beats start at 0:58, again at 1:50 & 2:41 and the New A part (which is repeated) starts right on 1:00 (which now hitting as a 3rd Beat, instead of being on the 1st!) again at 1:52 &2:43 - so the whole tune is played thru 4 times (will edit prev post). 

Didn't look at BPM, was only concerned if I could count 4 Beats per measure. 

Listened again - New A part definitely starts with it's strong beat on the 3rd, instead of the 1st.  Maybe this is not a big deal anymore, because...

Just realized the sheet music I posted says 2/4 time!  Same version at thesession.org shows 4/4.

Also, there's definitely an odd Shuffle rhythm in the C parts - so, am I hearing syncopation in the New A part, odd/longer C part Phrasing, or just extra notes?

 

 

...still inflicted - paralanalysitosis. 🤣

- Emily

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September 14, 2021 - 10:37 pm
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@elcbk.. i. still needing to record a critter tune and annies song.. yeah reality is i probably wont try playing this anytime soon.. but i definately like it and gonna try and download from amazon music.  i need to listen closer i guess..really only hearing that last measure before starting back to beginning thats different beat wise.  and the whole thing felt left right left right or 1 , 3 ,1 , 3 on beat..  so i just figured 4/4 but felt cut time if makes sense.   the odd feeling  beat could just be last measure rolling back into pickup measure.  once it picks up pace it actually fells more square the longer i listened. if 4/4 that 105 to 110 would be doubled bpm the way i was counting.  try with fingers when it starts...thinking 1 3 1 3  instead of 1,2,3,4. see if it feels different that way.

great example!!  nice one...so tell me the story on how you stumbled on this lol!  

thinking crested hens, or swallowtail, or delvvanys goat, or one thats got otter in its name for the critter tune.  maybe that lark tune.. saddle the pony?? pigeon on gate..( nope)  dang i need a fiddle fix

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September 18, 2021 - 12:38 am
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Fiddle Hell → Lisa Ornstein → La Bottine Souriante! 

After playing La Bottine Souriante's version of "Nuit Sauvage" for a few days now, I'm still thinking this should at least be written up with a different Time Signature for the "C" part. 

https://cdn4.iconfinder.com/data/icons/emoji-sketchy/60/009_-_Evil-emoji-eyebrows-scowl-emoticon-grin-512.png

← my new "Mad Scientist" emoji. (lol) 

Shorter note value more dominant, rhythm change & possible odd measure in there but I'm still too wrapped up in just playing it to be able to wrap my head around anything more, yet.  

 

...Rocky Horror!  🤗

- Emily

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I've finally had a chance to learn about some Japanese Composers and found one who has some short pieces I like - full of Time Changes! 

I see where these 'Dances' could be 'Classical' Fiddle Tunes!  Most are only 1-2 minutes in length. 🤗  

This 1st example IS SO BEAUTIFUL - I LOVE IT!  "Lullaby in Celestial Night" only changes between 3/4 and 5/8 time - performed by Kyoko Tabe (Azurelith). 

 

The constant, in these next 3 short tunes by Takashi Yoshimatsu, is the ⅛ note - so,  I think seeing/hearing sheet music examples of TIME CHANGE, like this, is very helpful!  

3. Apple Seed Dance   5. Leaflet Dance   7. Platan Dance 

 

 

According to Wikipedia, Yoshimatsu wrote 9 Opus of 'Pleiades Dances' - 7 interchangeable dances/movements in each Opus - 63 total!  The total works are divided into 3 books.  Originally all written for piano, the 7 movements of the 2nd Opus were also arranged for Violin, Flute & Piano. 

  • All have Time Changes, some more radical! 
  • Some are Modal! 
  • Names like: "Canticle of Quiet Rain", "Interlude with a Hymn", "Waltz in Obtuse Angle", "Liquid Invention" - have piqued my interest!

Nice to know that back in the mid-late 70's, Yoshimatsu was fascinated by the same progressive Rock Groups/Bands that I was - he's definitely got my attention. 🥰

 

Going to take me quite a while to check them ALL out!  

🤔... will I find a treasure? 

- Emily

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September 20, 2021 - 5:42 am
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'Common' Time = 4/4, 'Cut' Time = 2/2, but what about 'Free' Time? 

Warning!: Nearing Halloween! 

Erik Satie, the French Composer, coined the term "Gnossiennes" for his hauntingly beautiful Piano pieces that were 'free' of Time Signatures and bar divisions.  They were experimental in form, rhythm and chordal Structure. (Wikipedia) 

I LOVE this Violin version of the 1st Gnossienne, performed by Anna KonoplyovaFive minutes long.

Gnossienne No. 1 - Erik Satie (violin version)

Here you can see exactly what is on the sheet music, even though it has NO time signature or bar divisions!  I'm just assuming this is in Fm.

Erik Satie - Gnossienne n°1 (Video Score)

AND, because Halloween will be here before you know it, one more version described as: "Satie's introspection meets Deconstructivist irony.  Here is the most ethereal, contrite and disturbing version of Gnossienne you can imagine..." 

Gnossienne n°1 (Satie) - Decostruttori Postmodernisti

 

 

This is so COOL! 

...going to have to learn this! 

- Emily

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Gnossienne is a really beautiful tune @elcbk.  thanks for sharing that!  have not heard before but I relate it to a horror movie theme or drama.  something maybe with a 19th century setting.... or one that flashes back to an older time.

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@iFIDDLE -

I might have to try to play it sounding creepy like the theremin in the Decostruttori Postmodernisti video. 

 

Oops! 

Almost forgot there was a great thread that BillyG started a while back - on "Time Changes". 

https://fiddlerman.com/forum/m.....ignatures/

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