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It's not something I've memorized, but I did play along with a video (a violin cover) of 'Take Five' - back when we talked about Dave Brubeck earlier in this thread.
I happen to like playing Jethro Tull's 'Living in the Past' (Ricchezza) on the fiddle.
I still think there's more music in odd time to explore than most folks realize, more than jazz - from traditional dance & popular songs, to the crazy amount of video game music people play covers of!
I hope fellow fiddlers here will try playing music in odd time - because it's FUN! I don't like to have to count, but I do feel it's important to try to internalize these rhythms (nomatter how 'odd').
How to play Odd Meters WITHOUT Counting (David Bennett).
Btw, I feel this last video applies to tunes where the rhythm remains the same.
The Skillywidden tune, 'The Five-Horned Beast', has an alternating rhythm (still in 5/4) - so take into consideration the pattern repeats every 2 measures. This (to me) is unexpected, it's Cornwall making this dancing/music part of it's heritage - seems more expected of Balfolk, Breton maybe (just an observation), but Cornwall does seem to be having an identity crisis. 🙄
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ELCBK said
. . .
I still think there's more music in odd time to explore than most folks realize, more than jazz. . .
I’ve got an odd one – not jazz—
I talked about this song, Schism by Tool (alt Rock band) in my Music Theory class. It changes meter 47 times; all kinds of “odd” times mixed with the more “normal” ones.
Wikipedia lists out the time signature changes:
Not sure anyone is going to try to play it on the fiddle, though 
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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ELCBK said
I still think there's more music in odd time to explore than most folks realize
Yes, my string orchestra has done things 5 and 7 to the bar in the past, but I can't remember which pieces. And I've played plenty of Bartok on the violin and piano. And then if you look at Latin-American guitar composers (I played CG for a few years), there's plenty, for obvious reasons, e.g. Leo Brouwer. When you've seen enough of it, you take it for granted.
Andrew
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@SharonC -
Wow, you found an interesting example of mixed meter on steroids! 🤣
The crazy thing is there wasn't anything that struck me as too weird. I think it's because of the music I listened to growing up (some heavy metal). I've only recently been finding there were quite a few bands I listened to that used not only odd time, but also mixed meter. Pink Floyd, LED Zepplin, even the Beatles made some wild mixed meter music. Genesis got crazy, but Zappa... just start the list. 😵 ALL those years listening & I didn't know why, just that I liked it.
I don't play video games, so I was kinda shocked to find the genre of Video Game Music over-run with odd & mixed meter! Almost like there's a contest to see who can do the most!
Watched this video a few days ago: 'Can Odd Meters Feel Good?' - Odd Time Signatures in Video Game Music Part 2. Was surprised to find there's some techniques that can make the music smoother, using imaginary barlines & strategically placed accents on high notes in groupings, implying cross rhythms! You'd be surprised what arpeggios can mask... and "repetition legitimizes"! 🤣
Another video I watched was '6 Levels of Mixed Meter Time Signatures (in Video Game Music)', from Cadence Hira. The top level had a crazy amount of time changes, but sounded GREAT - it followed the increasing sequence of Fibonacci numbers!
When we get down to smaller time changes like adding, or subtracting a beat (or 2) - maybe because it's natural to stretch or shorten time for some lyrics... aren't these resulting time changes a feature of 'Crooked Tunes'?
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@Gordon Shumway -
When you've seen enough of it, you take it for granted.
I was trying to make that point... the more we hear and play odd time (or time changes), the more natural it should feel.
BUT, there's more to try than Classical (you make sound like a chore) - stuff you can have fun with just playing out back for yourself, or your neighbors!
The 'crooked tunes' I've seen has time changes resulting from additional, or subtracted beats, but don't seem to ever end up 'odd'.
I do think early publishers smoothed out a lot of traditional tunes that might've been 'crooked', before printing. I wouldn't mind it a bit if folks (today) would loosen up & celebrated some 'crookedness'!
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Maybe you should regard 3/4 as an odd time sig too. Think about dancing - you have two legs, so 2/4 and 4/4 make sense, but 3/4 and 5/4 and 7/4 are all basically the same problem. How do you dance the odd beat? 5/4 and 7/4 often, perhaps usually, contain a 3/4 component.
Andrew
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Sorry, two legs doesn't have anything to do with time. 🤨
I do have an old tune I wanted to share that alternates between 4/4 & 3/4 time.
'Twa Corbies' - Liesel Wilson. There's notation on The Session, but here's a link to Twa Corbies pdf (choir arrangement from Celtic Scores) that could be used for multiple voicings (fiddle/viola).
I could've sworn this was a Robert Burns poem/ballad, only finding anonymous. 
Thought the tune was Scottish, but it's Breton (different lyrics for this version, too)!
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ELCBK said
Sorry, two legs doesn't have anything to do with time. 🤨
Dancing is a variant on walking - you do both with two legs. So an even number of beats is no problem. The problem is what to do on the odd beat.
Andrew
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I was trying to make that point... the more we hear and play odd time (or time changes), the more natural it should feel.
until one plays with another, there is no odd time signature, just the musician playing music.
The specifics of what is happening only become important or show themselves when there’s more than just oneself playing. A person has to relate that playing IN REAL TIME to another person playing, a recording, or metronome as a measurement. The whole purpose of sheet music is to notate so everyone can play together. A secondary purpose is a record of what the tune is.
it still can be music and wonderful and a pleasure to listen to, but the timing means less. The tune can even be changed into another because of that… timing I mean. Airs are a good example of that happening in reverse. A solo vocalist singing an Irish air is almost impossible to capture on sheet music to be played by an instrument. It’s done and played well but not exactly what was sung.
so, I agree to the point of the more we listen the more natural it becomes to us.. we can play happily along to the tune in our head forever and be correct. But to be aligned with the whole meaning of this topic it has to be played together either with a metronome or recording or other people to have meaning. Time/timing matters when related to something.
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@ABitRusty -
I understand what you are saying.
It is kinda weird to say/think something like '3/4 time', or 'waltz time', when it isn't about time - time is only indicated by tempo/BPM. And, 'rhythm' is only a pattern in that 'time'.
Still, I have some pre-conceived ideas about rhythm AND time when I see Time Signatures for music in traditional genres. ...but, I have to look at the whole score (or hear it) to confirm if what I think is true, or not.
I'd like to think that even if I'm ONLY just playing the fiddle (with no one else, no accompaniment) - a listener can feel what the meter is, and if I change it. I'm pretty sure it only takes one fiddler to get folks dancing, but I admit to 'feeling' other aspects of the music (in my mind) that probably come out indirectly in my playing.
I expect an odd time signature to be wonky, or at least a 'little off' (from what I'm used to), yet I gave examples (in post #104) where this isn't always the case.
@Gordon Shumway -
Dancing is a variant on walking - you do both with two legs. So an even number of beats is no problem. The problem is what to do on the odd beat.
Not any problem. First of all, dance steps are choreographed to make good use of the rhythm & accents on beats, and 2nd - all beats can be subdivided so there never really has to be the feeling of an 'odd beat'. There's nothing odd about dancing a waltz, and once into the groove, dancers weren't having any trouble dancing to the 5/4 tune (video in post #98).
Just like a 3/4 waltz is not treated as 4/4 minus a beat - I don't think many of the crazier-time dances are treated as 'missing something', but have a groove that's danceable.
Time Signatures used in Bulgarian music addressed in this Fusion Magazine article from Vessela Stoyanova (teacher at Berklee). ...great article, I enjoyed it.
Against The Odds: an Exploration of Bulgarian Rhythms
If someone can dance to it, a fiddler can play it!
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ke to think that even if I'm ONLY just playing the fiddle (with no one else, no accompaniment) - a listener can feel what the meter is, and if I change it. I'm pretty sure it only takes one fiddler to get folks dancing, but I admit to 'feeling' other aspects of the music (in my mind) that probably come out indirectly in my playing.
Ill play things and try and have some type of reference to check it to.. but that is what i think of as practicing.. or concentrating more on it. Not that I dont enjoy that.. but the most enjoyable or what is relaxing.. or freeing.. is just playing. Not worrying about tempo.. even experimenting with the feel.. seeing what happens when emphasising different notes.. not concentrating so much on checking all the technique boxes of any particular tune.
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ELCBK said
@Gordon Shumway -
Dancing is a variant on walking - you do both with two legs. So an even number of beats is no problem. The problem is what to do on the odd beat.
Not any problem.
My meaning was the opposite of what I was saying - I was being ironic. 5/4 and 7/4 are 2+3 and 4+3. They are no weirder than 3/4. If you've worked out what to do with your extra leg for 3/4, then you can easily work out what to do with it for 5/4 or 7/4.
The only real problem is that for us (but not for inhabitants of Bolivia or Peru or the Balkans), 5/4 and 7/4 are less common than 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, and so are not yet in the set of rhythms that we feel, rather than count. In other words, they aren't a habit.
Andrew
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@ABitRusty , @Gordon Shumway -
Thanx for your thoughts on all this.
I didn't want to stray too far away from a few ideas.
- Finding a possible correlation between the more unusual Time Signatures and particular pieces I'm strongly drawn to.
- Finding ways to write Time Signatures that might better help beginners (including me) better understand what's happening in a written score - especially if NO audio reference is available.
Was hoping to find if others found any particularly alluring.
When I think back, I was originally surprised to find how much I liked some of the examples of Orchestral music AndrewH shared earlier (post #30).
I realize Time Signatures can get in the way of sight-reading music & doesn't 'show' rhythm, but (to me) there are ways IT CAN IMPLY it - which I feel can be helpful, especially in the case of odd time signatures!
I do now see odd time signatures as being additive rhythm - AND think it's very helpful to show the grouping breakdown (2+2+3/8, etc...). There can also be additive rhythm in music with time signatures that are NOT odd, e.g., ITM reels in 4/4 (3+3+2/8) - and I still believe a little extra attention to detail like this could be invaluable to folks new to learning a genre.
Now that I've seen composers/arrangers use more than one time signature at the beginning of a score, an indication of a horizontal hemiola would make so much sense (to me) - as 6/8, 3/4 (see Metre (music) Wikipedia). Maybe a nightmare for sight-reading, but showing each new time signature change (where it takes place in a score), would help give me an overall feel for the music.
One more important thing (something I really like)... anywhere I hear mixed meter, or see time signature changes - I perceive changes in speed.
This is not tempo change, just something felt.
Now... trying to follow Wikipedia (alone) will get me in trouble. 'Time Signature', is also known as 'Meter Signature', but when I look up 'Metric Modulation' - the definition seems much broader than I expected! 😕 ...had to insert a few comments/questions into the quote, because I don't understand why it applies to both 'time signature' AND 'tempo'(?)
In music, metric modulation is a change in pulse rate (tempo) [REALLY?] and/or pulse grouping (subdivision) which is derived from a note value or grouping heard before the change. Examples of metric modulation may include changes in time signature across an unchanging tempo [okay, what I thought], but the concept applies more specifically to shifts from one time signature/tempo (metre) [what???] to another, wherein a note value from the first is made equivalent to a note value in the second, like a pivot or bridge.
I did find a book by Justin London (free to read on the Internet Archive) I hope I can make time for.
Hearing In Time : Psychological Aspects of Musical Meter (2004)
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