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I have been looking into the differences of each persuasion. Since I planned to play both fiddle music and possibly hymn, classical music I have been looking at the various teaching methods and how they differ depending on the type of music you plan to play.
So far I have found a few differences between the two. These may not be entirely correct since I don't feel I have the best grasp on it yet.
-Classical teachers try to get the thumb away from around the back of the neck to train for moving further up the neck later on. Fiddle players don't generally move that far up the neck.
-Classical teachers start players early on techniques designed to allow fluid movement across the maximum range of the instrument. Fiddle players seldom play to higher positions.
-Classical teachers train students to play a wide range of scales in all modes. Fiddle players tend to stay in a handful of the major keys.
-Classical players hold the violin further to the side over the shoulder to allow for better arm movement, so when you look at printed music you're actually turning yourself to the side. Fiddle teachers play with the instrument more towards the center of the body or maybe even directly in front.
- Classical teachers train students mostly by notation and mostly written by famous classical composers. Fiddlers play a lot of material all by memory and generally stay within one or two types of fiddle music such as bluegrass or Irish Traditional.
Having looked over this it seems advantageous to learn from a classical approach if one plans to ever branch out. Some of the very best "fiddlers" I know have had a solid classical background.
Opinions? Thoughts?
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@starise
I agree with all your comparisons you list, although I have only been taught in the classical genre.
Recently, my teacher invited me to join a fiddle group where we played some country style songs.. I would not say this was bluegrass, and definitely not Irish fiddle.
One thing I did notice, which was much different than classical, was the music and playing style of country fiddle is more casual and was played more for the fun of it than classical.
Also, classical is usually played in an orchestra, with the exception of solo playing. Chambers are classical as well, but there is no difference in the style and form from the orchestra.
The audiences of classical orchestra and bluegrass or Irish fiddle are completely different as well. Imagine playing bluegrass to an audience expecting a Beethoven symphony, or playing a Bach sonata in a small venue for an audience expecting to hear Foggy Mountain Breakdown, complete with banjo and guitar!
I will say that the more rounded and the more exposed to many different genres of music, the better a musician. I think you are smart to delve into as many as you can.
- Pete -
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I agree with Pete...why not explore other styles. Now the ONLY drawback I can see is time. Yes most if not all save maybe Kevin Burke..not sure there..of my favorite fiddlers are classically trained from a child. Man I'm just trying to get this Irish roll thing to sound Irish...I personally don't know if I could do both in parallel but I envy anyone that can and think they'll be better for it.
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Yes, likewise.
Although my preferred playing genre and style is fiddle music, I have certainly gained benefit from investigating classical playing techniques, and working on small but well known excerpts of slower movements. Teaches you a lot about overall tone production and bow-control. I guess (on the whole) fiddle tunes are faster (sorry - that didn't quite come out right - I *don't* mean faster than classical - there are plenty of those!!! - I mean, commonly, across the fiddle genre there are more fast-paced fiddle tunes than slow marches or laments etc...) So, sure, @starise there is certainly benefit to be gained, time permitting to make the effort..... Go for it - and it will pay you back enormously I'm sure for some of your planned hymn/church music which is commonly slower-paced.
I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - 
Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)
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Thanks for your comments. I see a main theme coming up here- Time. I told my teacher I would either learn or die trying. I said this in response to her comment that some adults get discouraged and quit.
No matter what I'll die trying to do something better on the violin, that's a given because I plan to play until I croak, that is, unless I accidentally put my hands to close to a mower or something. That isn't likely. If something like that would happen I would just get someone to duct tape a harmonica to my head or learn to play something with my feet. Not a violin!!
The time I have left is less than the time I've spent. If a person is of the mind to go the classical route this is a real consideration. I mainly want to learn the best ways to most efficiently play. I probably don't have the time to be too concerned about anything at the high levels of classical music. Just being real. If I happen to surprise myself and do better than I expect I'll take it.
I'm beginning to wish there was an accelerated, abbreviated
short version" of classical technique for the aging adult. In truth there's really nothing "accelerated" about learning the violin.
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I said this in response to her comment that some adults get discouraged and quit.
I don’t understand why teachers assume adult learners will give up. A lot of younger school age kids will give up, move on to something else, swap music lessons for sports, etc. or they are forced to continue by their parents or guardians. If being forced, I put that in the category of giving it up because it is not out of their desire.
I think the older students have more drive, more of a “Better do it now, time is running out” thought. I put a lot of time in my lesson work and free time playing. I have an urge to learn as much as I can, and play as much as I can while my body lets me. When I am gone, they better bury me with a cello, violin and viola, music stand and tuner! Need the tuner so I don’t get banned for noise ordinance issues.
Not my best ones instruments, they go to my two granddaughters.
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Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.
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cid said
I said this in response to her comment that some adults get discouraged and quit.
I don’t understand why teachers assume adult learners will give up. A lot of younger school age kids will give up, move on to something else, swap music lessons for sports, etc. or they are forced to continue by their parents or guardians. If being forced, I put that in the category of giving it up because it is not out of their desire.
I think the older students have more drive, more of a “Better do it now, time is running out” thought. I put a lot of time in my lesson work and free time playing. I have an urge to learn as much as I can, and play as much as I can while my body lets me. When I am gone, they better bury me with a cello, violin and viola, music stand and tuner! Need the tuner so I don’t get banned for noise ordinance issues.
Not my best ones instruments, they go to my two granddaughters.
A lot of teachers seem to think adult responsibilities will keep people from sticking with any hobby. And in all fairness that's often true for working adults -- it doesn't escape my notice that the majority of musicians in most of the community orchestras I've played in are retired.
But... I agree with you. The children who take violin lessons tend to be overscheduled too. There really isn't much difference in the amount of other commitments.
And there are plenty of committed adult amateurs who are working age. My semi-pro orchestra has at least a dozen outstanding amateur string players who are under 40 and pursuing non-music careers. My amateur orchestra even has at least two highly committed adult starters who are intermediate-to-advanced players by classical standards, and under 40. (This does not include me, I started about a year too early to count.)
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AndrewH said
cid said
I said this in response to her comment that some adults get discouraged and quit.
I don’t understand why teachers assume adult learners will give up. A lot of younger school age kids will give up, move on to something else, swap music lessons for sports, etc. or they are forced to continue by their parents or guardians. If being forced, I put that in the category of giving it up because it is not out of their desire.
I think the older students have more drive, more of a “Better do it now, time is running out” thought. I put a lot of time in my lesson work and free time playing. I have an urge to learn as much as I can, and play as much as I can while my body lets me. When I am gone, they better bury me with a cello, violin and viola, music stand and tuner! Need the tuner so I don’t get banned for noise ordinance issues.
Not my best ones instruments, they go to my two granddaughters.
A lot of teachers seem to think adult responsibilities will keep people from sticking with any hobby. And in all fairness that's often true for working adults -- it doesn't escape my notice that the majority of musicians in most of the community orchestras I've played in are retired.
But... I agree with you. The children who take violin lessons tend to be overscheduled too. There really isn't much difference in the amount of other commitments.
And there are plenty of committed adult amateurs who are working age. My semi-pro orchestra has at least a dozen outstanding amateur string players who are under 40 and pursuing non-music careers. My amateur orchestra even has at least two highly committed adult starters who are intermediate-to-advanced players by classical standards, and under 40. (This does not include me, I started about a year too early to count.)
Agree with you cid. I have read a few sought after violin teacher's comments who have tried to teach adults say that the adults often quit. What the percentage of attrition is compared to kids I don't know.
An "adult" can be anyone from 21 to 100. The context of those statements can change drastically. As a music leader who oversees volunteers I see a lot of quitters. People have good intentions, get into it and then realize they find other things more important in their life or doing it was harder than they originally thought. A small percentage hang with it. This doesn't seem necessarily to be age related. I'm working with a drummer who was 14 when he started and now he's 20 something. He could have quit at any time. No one was pressuring him to continue.There were probably ten people who quit though or weren't dependable. I realize this isn't strictly about violin but it's the only point of reference I have. Some people have more of an interest, thicker skin and will stubbornly stay with something even when it doesn't look like they are making any progress. As a general rule, I think adults are usually more responsible because if we weren't the bottom would drop out of whatever it is we do.
It is true that retired adults have more time. If they are healthy they can keep doing what they like. If health declines though I don't think they are more advantaged than a working adult.Probably less so.
I spent the entire day yesterday playing music in two different locations...and I work full time during the week. I also manage to practice regularly.Not that it makes much difference 
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Following these forums, I think we've all seen adult beginners join here all fired up and ready to learn, only to give it up when it gets hard or they get busy. I see that happen with lots of hobbies adults take on. So I get that teachers might think they won't stick to it.
Not long into learning I knew my focus was going to be Irish fiddling. Even still, in my lessons much of my training was in classical techniques. My teacher emphasized she wanted me to be a well rounded fiddler, and I appreciated that.
To keep myself from being discouraged when repetitive motion injuries reared their ugly heads, I did drop all of that kind of practice earlier this year to make sure I am still getting to play tunes and have fun. I haven't looked at an etude or shifting scale in several months, but still play constantly and am learning lots of fiddling techniques. Learning the fiddling techniques are a different kind of challenge, but at least I don't have to think as hard about maintaining my tone, etc, because of the classical training I did while I could.
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Quitting happens with kids, too. I think the reason so many instructors “discourage” adult students is that they really do not know how to relate. The younger student had been the norm for so long and that is what they generally are looking for when deciding to teach music.
I think it is very discouraging to adult students to hear this. I think it discourages adult student wanna be’s when they read it when deciding whether to do it, actually. I think it actually plays a part in many adult students’ decision to stop. I think that it is creating a feeling of it going to be harder than they thought, that they can’t do it, etc. Then as soon as it starts to get beyond beginner, they actually believe they need to quit. I don’t think encouragement is given by the teacher due to his or her predetermined misconception of adult students, and I think the teacher is moving too quickly.
I think that teachers need to realize that adult students, in most cases, need to go slower, they need to work on a piece longer than the younger student. They can’t be pushed as fast. This can be for many reasons, the fact that they do have a job, have a family, maybe their learning ability has slowed down, maybe physical issues as they are aging are making them need to go slow. I don’t think the normal musical instrument teacher is equipped to deal with this.
I have told all my teachers, “I am in no hurry. I have no issue with repeating a lesson over and over. It does take me longer to grasp some things, but if I take my time, I can fly with it after I learn it. So, please, go at my speed. I know it will be boring for you, but this is how I learn.” They all say that that is fine. They have no problem. But, and this is a big “BUT”, once we get into the lessons, my speech is out the window. Now, that just gives the adult student a sense of defeat, and sense of (s)he cannot do it, and hence, rather than waste money trying to learn something they want, they quit, believing all the comments about not being able to teach an old dog new tricks.
All my instructors, except my current one and the cello instructor before him, has done this to me. I pay for the lessons and if I need to go slow, it is up to that teacher to accommodate my needs. If I was a child and had to be taught this way, that instructor would go out of his or her way to accommodate the child student, as (s)he should.
I do not subscribe to adults quitting any more often than the child quits, many children do not quit but they are pushed to do a hobby they are not interested in and are not encouraged to go their own way. I remember from school conversation there were many kids who quit music lessons. I have nieces and nephews who quit lessons because they wanted to pursue a different hobby, or a sport, or they just did not like it etc. I don’t consider it quitting. I consider it deciding it is not for him/her. Many would like to quit, but are forced to continue, not getting into that.
As you can see, this is a topic I really am passionate about. I think this idea of adults just quitting more than younger students is plain bogus. Has there been any study? I think instructors prefer to “mold” a child to play the way that instructor plays, did not consider teaching adults when deciding to teach and therefore, has no idea how to teach an adult, or a combination of the two.
I don’t think a study would be accurate unless reasons a young student is continuing (by choice or force) is included. Unless why the student, young or old, had to stop lessons is included. If the discontinuing has nothing to do with the flawed reasoning of instructors making this insinuation, it needs to be noted, financial, physical, instructor not willing to accommodate, etc. These are all legit reasons for discontinuing and are not “quitting” reasons.
I don’t know why there is an issue with someone giving it a chance, be they young or adult, and then finding out it is not for him/her. Why is that considered quitting if it is not their cup of tea?
No offense to anyone, just my opinion based on my experience with many an instructor over the years on many instruments. I never “quit” due to anything except the instructor made me feel defeated from the the beginning, and did not abide by our agreement to go at my speed. I then went as far as I could at home on my own. Would I have continued with lessons if things were different? You bet I would have. My experience has given me this opinion. Luckily, I have no problem with my current instructor. Instead of making me feel defeated or very slow catching on, I get encouragement and it goes a long way with my turtle speed of progressing.
I don’t recall reading any posts here about anyone quitting (I hate that term). Many don’t visit the site any longer, but that does not mean they have moved on from their instrument. I think, “moved on” is better than quitting. I don’t consider that because someone found a hobby that they tried was not suited to him or her, for any reason, that that person is considered to be a quitter.
Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I see it.
Interesting discussion. Funny how they morph.
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damfino said
Following these forums, I think we've all seen adult beginners join here all fired up and ready to learn, only to give it up when it gets hard or they get busy.
@damfino
LOL!!
When is violin ever not hard?
When are we ever not busy?
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Not long into learning I knew my focus was going to be Irish fiddling. Even still, in my lessons much of my training was in classical techniques. My teacher emphasized she wanted me to be a well rounded fiddler, and I appreciated that.
damfino you are a young adult learner and there's no reason to think you won't go far playing Irish music. I hope you find a session close to you as I think this helps in developing the feel and rhythm of the music as it is typically played. I just attended a session yesterday and love most of it. The only thing that is challenging is when I'm the only fiddler, there are only maybe 5 in the group, two of those being percussion or support instruments, I'm out of material and into the last of three hours LOL! We can get very creative during that last hour! We play all of the common music the first hour or so when the bar is almost empty, then people start to fill the bar on hour two. We are pulling at the lesser known tunes, then it's the bottom of the barrel lol. I typically attend a less formal session because I'm still learning the tunes. We have a few in my area though that are more serious with a more educated player base. I need to really know my stuff at those...or not play. My teacher attends one or two of those. She doesn't play around. The downside to the more experienced players is they sometimes play things so fast no one can keep up with them. Players actually dread seeing them come.
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cid, I feel where you are coming from here as it pertains to adults learning. Some teachers make adult learners more of their focus while others are mostly centered on younger players. My present teacher decided to take me on even though she teaches mostly children. Like you, I don't think all teachers are gifted to teach adults. I think it takes an extra skill set.
I think many teachers also take their teaching seriously enough that they value their investment in people. They don't want to invest heavily in someone who is going to throw in the towel on them.
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damfino said
Following these forums, I think we've all seen adult beginners join here all fired up and ready to learn, only to give it up when it gets hard or they get busy. I see that happen with lots of hobbies adults take on. So I get that teachers might think they won't stick to it.
Sure. As I was saying, adults do quit, especially working-age adults. But I'm not convinced children are any less likely to quit. As far as I can tell, most children who take violin lessons have stopped by the time they start high school.
cid said
Quitting happens with kids, too. I think the reason so many instructors “discourage” adult students is that they really do not know how to relate. The younger student had been the norm for so long and that is what they generally are looking for when deciding to teach music.
I think it is very discouraging to adult students to hear this. I think it discourages adult student wanna be’s when they read it when deciding whether to do it, actually. I think it actually plays a part in many adult students’ decision to stop. I think that it is creating a feeling of it going to be harder than they thought, that they can’t do it, etc. Then as soon as it starts to get beyond beginner, they actually believe they need to quit. I don’t think encouragement is given by the teacher due to his or her predetermined misconception of adult students, and I think the teacher is moving too quickly.
Fortunately, I get the sense the mindset among teachers is starting to change. Most of the teachers in my area now accept adult students. This is a far cry from the mid to late 1990s, when I was trying to find beginner lessons as a teenager. The whole reason I ended up self-teaching was that I was rejected by multiple teachers for being "too old" to start on a string instrument. One said it was rare for anyone starting older than 10 to ever get beyond beginner level. That line would seem to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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They don't want to invest heavily in someone who is going to throw in the towel on them.
This is one of the things that I don't get. By this thinking, nobody should ever try to do anything because they may find they do not like it, find out that it costs more financially than they had had thought, may find that it takes more time than they have to devote to it. So, they have to make the decision to try something else. Why is that considered “throwing the towel on them”?
It sounds, at least to me, that the person who tried to do something new is a failure if that person discovers (s)he does not actually like it, cannot afford all the extras (I know I had no idea about the expense of chinrests and shoulder rests, price of strings, etc.), it takes more time than (s)he has, not physically able, etc. I do not consider it quitting or throwing the towel at them. That is where I feel that adults get a bum rap.
I don’t think that if someone stops a hobby because they are finding it difficult to be quitters, either. A hobby is supposed to be relaxing, to be enjoyable. If you try something that you simply cannot do and it is not enjoyable, you move on, that does not make you a quitter. Am no longer going to make quilts after I finish the last six memory quilts. I am not a quilter quitter, I am just tired of it. Trying makes you aware of your abilities and moving on shows you have the knowledge and self-awareness to move on, without worrying about being considered a quitter.
Even if this activity is something you want to try to learn to make a living and you find it is not for you, for whatever reason, moving on to something else, if you can financially, does not make you a quitter.
Life is short, why force yourself to continue to do something you do not enjoy, have a hard time with, really can’t afford, because the people you left behind will consider you a quitter? It does not mean, as I have read in another forum, that the person thought taking up the violin, viola, cello, or whatever it was thought it was going to be a walk in the park. The same goes for whatever someone tries to do, not necessarily a musical instrument. They tried. They investigated. They gave it a shot and moved on. Kudos to that person for trying. Does this make sense? I may be rambling.
Anyone, even an instructor, should applaud that person for trying.
I do tend to look at things quite differently than most people, as people who know me well, know very well. If I stepped on any toes, it was not intentional and I certainly respect all opinions, as that is what these are. No right and no wrong. I just kind of dislike generalizations that categorize and group people. A lot is missed by doing that. I believe adult students are categorized by unproven generalizations not based on facts.
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@damfino
To keep myself from being discouraged when repetitive motion injuries reared their ugly heads, I did drop all of that kind of practice earlier this year to make sure I am still getting to play tunes and have fun. I haven't looked at an etude or shifting scale in several months, but still play constantly and am learning lots of fiddling techniques. Learning the fiddling techniques are a different kind of challenge, but at least I don't have to think as hard about maintaining my tone, etc, because of the classical training I did while I could.
I greatly admire your dedication. Your playing is wonderful. I am so amazed by so many people in this forum.
A question, is the fiddle music easier on your repetitive motion injuries? If so, why is that? Are the movements different for fiddling? Thanks
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cid said
They don't want to invest heavily in someone who is going to throw in the towel on them.
This is one of the things that I don't get. By this thinking, nobody should ever try to do anything because they may find they do not like it, find out that it costs more financially than they had had thought, may find that it takes more time than they have to devote to it. So, they have to make the decision to try something else. Why is that considered “throwing the towel on them”?
It sounds, at least to me, that the person who tried to do something new is a failure if that person discovers (s)he does not actually like it, cannot afford all the extras (I know I had no idea about the expense of chinrests and shoulder rests, price of strings, etc.), it takes more time than (s)he has, not physically able, etc. I do not consider it quitting or throwing the towel at them. That is where I feel that adults get a bum rap.
I don’t think that if someone stops a hobby because they are finding it difficult to be quitters, either. A hobby is supposed to be relaxing, to be enjoyable. If you try something that you simply cannot do and it is not enjoyable, you move on, that does not make you a quitter. Am no longer going to make quilts after I finish the last six memory quilts. I am not a quilter quitter, I am just tired of it. Trying makes you aware of your abilities and moving on shows you have the knowledge and self-awareness to move on, without worrying about being considered a quitter.
Even if this activity is something you want to try to learn to make a living and you find it is not for you, for whatever reason, moving on to something else, if you can financially, does not make you a quitter.
Life is short, why force yourself to continue to do something you do not enjoy, have a hard time with, really can’t afford, because the people you left behind will consider you a quitter? It does not mean, as I have read in another forum, that the person thought taking up the violin, viola, cello, or whatever it was thought it was going to be a walk in the park. The same goes for whatever someone tries to do, not necessarily a musical instrument. They tried. They investigated. They gave it a shot and moved on. Kudos to that person for trying. Does this make sense? I may be rambling.
Anyone, even an instructor, should applaud that person for trying.
I do tend to look at things quite differently than most people, as people who know me well, know very well. If I stepped on any toes, it was not intentional and I certainly respect all opinions, as that is what these are. No right and no wrong. I just kind of dislike generalizations that categorize and group people. A lot is missed by doing that. I believe adult students are categorized by unproven generalizations not based on facts.
I love to hear different opinions cid. I can't pin a certain attribute to any group because undoubtedly there are always exceptions. As a general rule most teachers want only the best for their students. I mean, they invested in their craft to learn it and be able to teach it well. They know there will be good students and there will be better students. In any serious discipline there's a lot that goes into it no matter what it is. Takes a lot of time and effort. Most of them truly WANT their students to do well.
I'm sure some are in it for the income. This is big if they take a student on and depend on the income.The two extremes are either not to care at all or care so much you want a success in the student every time. I don't think either extreme is the answer. Instead, they realize there will be those who don't make it. This is why many teachers have a trial period for the student. I just paid up for three months to my teacher. If I didn't practice during that time she would have every right to take another student who is trying harder. Some teachers cater to a more high end student where the stakes are higher. These teachers are usually highly sought after for their level of expertise. That ain't me LOL.
If I were a teacher I would want students who want to go the full distance as much as possible. Not students who dabble around or don't want to play. There really is no in between here. Either go for it or don't. As a music leader I would prefer those people who stay the course. I know life happens and over the years I've come to accept this, though not without disappointment. Maybe similar to an employer who is trying to hire for a job. They want good workers who can stick around and learn the ropes, which are also hard to find sometimes. People get older, change priorities, move away. I wasn't referring to any of that. Life happens
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My pianist friend taught piano to kids. He said that when a kid was showing definite signs they have no intention to practice or bother with piano, he would speak with the parents and advise them that they are wasting their money on the lessons. He told them he is not interested in taking students that do not want to practice and learn piano. It was a waste of his time and the parents' money.
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Ok, I get the points that teachers want the best for their students. “Best” means many things, however. I think that “best” is to reach the student’s goals.”, not the instructor’s. I have no desire to ever perform. I have no desire to play to other people’s expectations. I just want to learn as much as I can, for as long as I can. I have to go slow. There is no way I would reach what a teacher would consider “best”, but it will be for me. Does that make me a bad student because I do not aspire to please anyone but myself? No. If I decide that it is time to explore other areas, does that make me a quitter? No it does not. Should that cause that generalization about adult students being quitters? No, it should not. It just means I wish to explore as much as I can. It means that I, as a student, am just moving on. I am not doing that, by-the-way, just used myself as an example. I love my lessons.
My issue is that generalization made that adults are quitters.
1. I find the term “quitters” inappropriate. The student has moved on to other things.
2. I doubt that adults move on more than younger students, I include younger students being forced to play in the category of moving on because if they could, they would.
I find it to be in bad form for an instructor of any form to make generalizations like that. It is insulting to the students they have in that category. The instructor does not know exactly why the adult student has moved on. That is my issue.
There are two students. The very focused who is learning to have a career. Then there are those who are doing it for self-esteem, self-fulfillment, and pure enjoyment. The two have different goals. If a teacher is only interested in category 1, the teacher should not accept a student from category 2. Even then, things change, and for whatever reason (financial, desire, physical issues, etc) if the student decides (s)he needs to move on, accept it and wish the student well in future endeavors. Don’t talk to other students or anyone about the, most likely unsubstantiated, generalization that adult students are “quitters”.
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I play a little of both, (or try to!) alternate between classical and fiddle, usually at every practice I'll go back and forth. The fiddlers I know play all the way up to at least 3rd and often 5th position, but they don't make a big a deal out of it, they just say lets hit that note on the D string instead, and you do it...but granted some do not know how to read sheet music, just tabs.
Although I don't see a crossover with them playing the other type of music.
I just love both genres and can't choose, so I think why not. Maybe us ever so slightly older folk just play what we want without any limitations, as we are learning at our own pace.
....and I told my grandkids, if they lose interest and it's not fun and they don't want to learn or practice a little, please don't waste my money!
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