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ok...so this was not the thread to enter late at night... (wine..family probs..woes ..ya all know what I mean?)
I glossed through.... only the snarky parts and parts where I and others are referred to as amateurs, and the insinuation that playing in tune is not a care... seemed to jump out at me.. I am not shallow and self centered..there is a lot of proper and detailed information in which I will glean tomorrow.
I WANT TO PLAY IN TUNE. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in the last year and a half playing the violin.... match that with reading instruction, taking some lessons, reading on forums, watching professionals, reading, practicing.... time, money, mental cells, callous, hurt shoulder, elbow...
I just spent 1.5 hours trying to get:
- songs to sound correct, in tune,
- not scratchy,
- proper fingering,
- proper bow hold,
- bending my elbow,
- proper bow speed,
- the right amount of rosin,
- the right amount of pressue,
- posture,
- and getting my !@!@#-ing fingers to wiggle on the strings to make "My Heart will Go on" sound well.
And when I come here to discuss the notes B A G slur in Amazing Grace (beginners version) and how to make it sound correct with proper timing, I find it snarky that because I am amatuer it is implied I don't give a @##T!
Okay...that's all... cheers...
You all thought I was sweeter than that ..right?
Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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danielB, a number of instructors advise that learning intervals is important. Thats the position taken at the laurie niles violin site and in the main reference books (mainly Fischer's). Personally, I don't find much utility in any kind of off violin ear training including Pierre's intonation game. I don't think interval training is useful at all even though many experts say so.
My main concern is that the brain prefers to memorize melodies instead of internalizing pitch recognition. I don't find practicing a diatonic scale or etude useful in developing pitch recognition. To me, every new etude requires meter.
It would seem a chromatic scale is preferred to learn pitches with an electronic meter. If its done 3 times a day, about 1 hr in length...then the ear develops because the pitches seem random and thus are internalized.

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Pierre, you just don't seem to get it. Read very slowly: The students are always using a meter to memorize every new tune from scratch. That is not learning any pitch recognition technique. ANd nobody here ever posts a video of a scale.
The way you trivialize ear training with your precious intonation game is completely absurd .

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Bruce Arnold makes a good point about the futility of interval recognition. Does anyone play music in real time muttering "major 3rd, perfect 4th, etc" to themselves. Music occurs too quickly for interval recognition to be of any use. The fact a violinist has to deal with chromaticism in modern works makes any reference to a tonal center seem dubious. Thus memorization in some form must surely be the key to success. Its just that if you treat the instrument in a diatonic manner, you end up memorizing the wrong thing which is of no use in general.

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Composer, I don't know as pitch recognition or playing perfectly in tune (if it were to be compared with some standard) is the "holy grail" of playing that some seem to think it is. I have been told that intonation is not something that a violinist/fiddler ever masters, so much as being one of the elements of playing that one constantly works at improving. Even for advanced players, from what I understand, it never becomes something they just take for granted in the sense of "mastering" it so that it takes no effort on their part.
Of course, I can't say for certain if that is true or not, since I am relatively new on this instrument. But it seemed plausible enough to me that I accepted it as a working premise and just went with exercises, practising and playing. Over the months, if anything, I have gotten more sensitive to if a note I play is perhaps a bit sharper or flatter than I intended, and so it takes a consistent effort on my part to keep improving on that. No teacher or method ever is really responsible for someone learning. Learning is always accomplished only by the effort of the student and the desire to improve. Books and teachers can't actually force a person to try. That desire has to be internal.
Ok, now about scales.. Personally, I class scales as exercises. With exercises, think of calisthenics that might be done by soldiers or athletes as part of their training. Such calisthenics are used to generally condition muscles and build endurance. Usually the soldier or athlete won't actually be using the exact move of a pushup or situp when fighting or competing. But it tones the muscles and helps build general consciousness of the body which can help with developing coordination as well. A certain amount of such activity can be very helpful, but it won't teach the soldier how to fight, the athlete how to do their event, or the musician how to play. Not by itself.
I would tend to agree that the brain/mind prefers to memorize melodies. I would put forth the further notion that it is much easier for the ear to hear if a melody or song is done "right" than for it to hear if a scale is correct. It seems to me that it is better to go with the brain on this instead of against it. Do scales and other exercises for the general muscles and condition of the hands and the endurance, but then work on melodies/pieces/songs for developing the ear and working on intonation.
But to redirect to the original question, "how does an instructor teach you to play in tune?". I personally don't know. In fact, I don't actually believe that they can. That sort of an improvement only happens when the student finds their own desire to make their playing sound better and puts in the work. Teachers and books can give some possible suggestions, can encourage a regular routine that may be helpful in the long run.. But if the player doesn't want to sound better and work for that, then it isn't likely to happen. The best teachers can find ways to inspire or motivate a student to work, maybe give them a methodology to use when tackling problems.. But the work is always something you have to do for yourself.
Just my personal view on teaching, really. It's like in academic subjects. The teacher can give you facts and make you have to regurgitate them on cue to pass quizzes. But that doesn't teach anyone to *think*. You only learn to think when you find the desire to do so and put forth the effort.
Kinda like the old joke..
"How many therapists does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"It only takes one, but the lightbulb has to actually want to change."
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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FiJaBAM said
I suggest everyone talking about people being born with an ear for music read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....n_On_Music
It's such an educational book that touches on everything. Composer, you also might find it helpful. Recognizing pitches and intervals takes practice. Some people have to work harder than others.
I think anyone considering reading or buying that book should look at the negative reviews at amazon.
Here is an excerpt from the book: "One of the several notes we call A has a frequency of 55 Hz and all other notes called A have frequencies that are two, three, four, five (or a half) times this frequency."
Of course the octave is a doubling of frequency, so the standard A's are found at 55, 110, 220, 440, 880, etc.
This book presents itself as science but fails miserably to present the most fundamental physical element of music. This alone shows that the book underwent no meaningful editing.

Composer said
Pierre, you just don't seem to get it. Read very slowly: The students are always using a meter to memorize every new tune from scratch. That is not learning any pitch recognition technique. ANd nobody here ever posts a video of a scale.The way you trivialize ear training with your precious intonation game is completely absurd .
Composer, perhaps you can do a video of you playing a scale so we might learn how it's done.

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So I am working with a 6 year old boy. This is entirely by ear. I play the note and he finds the note on his fingerboard by ear. We then play the note over and over so he can remember where his finger goes and what it sounds like. Then I play the first measures of twinkle twinkle, he watches my fingers and finds the notes by ear. We then repeat over and over until he has it memorized by ear and by finger position.
Its amazing to me that he is dilligent in his searching for the notes without frustration. To him it seems its a game that is fun for him. He has ADD and is very energetic yet he absorbs the information quickly. His mom and him practice each day for the next lesson and he is steadily improving.
Now I didnt feel comfortable trying to explain to this child the correct pitch of each note based on intervals or their relationship to each other, ie no dots. Nor did I feel confident that this child would comprehend any of that anyways. He just wants to play the notes like I play them.
This is the first young child Ive worked with and I am amazed at his speed in finding the notes, accuracy in refinding them and ability to memorize the music. He also stops mid playing if he hits a wrong note and finds the right fingering based on pitch.
He prefers thumb under the frog bow hold by the way, I dont get it. He also prefers a washcloth to a shoulder rest. I think his last name must be pagannini. lol.
He already has the first two tunes in the Suzuki book 1 memorized, plays them accurately according to the recordings and he cant read music.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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wasnt the origional post of this thread Composers belief that the only way to truly learn is to learn by ear?
{It seems you must be able to recognize melodic intervals at some point to really be able to play in tune. All the method books just assume you know, as just one example, the difference between a perfect 4th and a perfect 5th (in tuning the open strings) before you even start page #1. I suspect the adults using Suzuki are just memorizing a sequence of notes in the particular piece they are learning by utilizing an electronic meter. My complaint is that that way of learning doesn't teach you the most important thing which is to play in tune. I've never seen a systematic approach to ear training on a violin. Lots of handwaving about sight singing or software trainers but in reality, everybody just more or less ignores the issue entirely.}
Hmmm.....I think its on topic......since I am primarily interested in Composers thoughts on this anyways.....
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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I'd have to agree that Pf's account of an actual current teaching experience is on topic. "How does an instructor teach you to play in tune?" Well, it is how one instructor is doing it with one student.
I can't think of how a person would know if they are in tune or not unless they are making the determination by ear. I hadn't even thought of people learning entire songs by use of an electronic tuner, and if that is part of the Suzuki method, I have never heard it mentioned before. Maybe I'm missing something. In any case, I do not recall any conditions being listed that rule out learning to play by ear.
The use of notation, be it "dots", numbers, letters or whatever, doesn't matter to the need to be able to play in tune. All systems of notation are only ways of writing down a sort of set of instructions that may be used to reconstruct a melody. They are not "the music" itself. Learning by ear and acquiring repertoire by rote memorization is probably the most traditional approach to learning music. Logically, it existed before any sort of notation.
But how a musician knows what notes to play is far less important than that they do indeed play. Reading is not what makes one a musician any more than being able to play by ear does. That's just your choice of how to get there. Musicians are the folks that play music.
Being able to play in tune well enough for the situation is going to be a universal need for musicians, I think. I don't think it is any more or less of a concern, regardless of if one chooses to play by ear, by notation, or by a combination of the two.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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I also feel that pfish's comments were pertinent to the discussion. > pfish comments takes it back to basics. Find the freaking note with your inner self. Play the freaking scale > Work on CMaj\AMin > no freaking sharps or flats. > Work on it until you get it. > Then move on with what is learned from that. The learning appends to the next step > Composer > I agree with Kevin M. > put a vid out there with you playing scales and how you can help others > If you can't do that simple request then your words are fruitless to others in the process of learning. Show us what you got > Or maybe you are all TALK and no WALK. Bring it ~~~~~~~~~.

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Composer has never made any claim I can recall of being a great player. It is possible to know quite a bit about music and still have more than a few difficulties playing violin as well as one would like.
Posting videos "proves" nothing except perhaps that the person has access to a video camera, webcam, or whatever.
Videos seem popular with many of this crowd, including some of the new folks. Some folks seem to enjoy sharing them. (I don't get it personally, since to me music is mainly about the sound.) If we let it turn into a "post a video or shut up" sort of attitude around here, we risk losing the positive elements some people feel they gain from posting video. Is it worth losing that to turn that activity into what amounts to a form of seeing who can urinate the furthest?
Just sayin'..
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman









Hi Daniel..I get totally what you are saying.
There can be a technical answer that is answered in technicality but not in ones ability.... So I get what you are saying. Just because I know something, does not mean I can do it.
I haven't got that vibe here at FM...learn and live..and learn...and learn and learn..right? We keep listening and learning and realize that music is an art..and the beauty is of very individual worth.
I am going back to read other input...(yours, Rob, FM etc.)
It is always hard for me to get past.."Pierre read slowly..." That conversation and rudeness....well at that point.... even technicality is lost. And so is the learn part?
Have mad Love for DanB. In the violin sort of way....Peace
Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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coolpinkone said
It is always hard for me to get past.."Pierre read slowly..." That conversation and rudeness....well at that point.... even technicality is lost. And so is the learn part?
Yeah, I hear ya on that. That was not a cool moment. When tempers get riled we all have to remember to be extra careful to keep respect for each other as musicians and respect each others' work/efforts. If we don't, then all the thought and good ideas that come out with a topic like this can end up ignored because of anger. Such a waste.
We are musicians. The people who make music. It is not always easy, and it takes work. That is more than reason enough reason to respect each other.
Go team!
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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I personally enjoy the philosophical touch that Composer brings to the forum. Composer's thoughts open up ones mind and thoughts on what music is about. That is why when Composer puts a post out there, I read it. I don't like Composer dissing Pierre's method of learning. I personally have learned much from Pierre's site and have great respect for Master FiddlerMan > therefore, like the dog I am, I lift my leg and point it at Composer. After spending hours studying Pierre's instructional vids, posts, learning tools etc it is actually quite relaxing to eat mushrooms and become one with the Composer's thoughts, like > When is a musical note really a note? It turns into a bad trip when the dis-respect toward the Master is evoked.
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