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@Composer
There is very little interest in classical music on this site. Its not surprising that a hostile attitude towards disciplined learning is prevalent.
KEEP UR INSULTS TO YOURSELF!
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"pfish, it doesn't matter what Suzuki actually said because people are using it for their own means (either self-delusion or money)."
@Composer- so then your real issue is with the teachers and students?
"The students believe that all their technical problems will magically disappear by skipping the existing piece and moving on to the next piece"
I dont know anyone who believes this. The actual method is based on the idea that once into it you will be working on 3 pieces at all times. 1 that you are polishing, 1 that you are in the middle of learning and the third piece you are preparing to learn by working on the complicated or tricky parts only.
"So they focus on graded repertoire which they first hear on prerecorded audio tracks."
Absolutely, based on the mother tongue theory. How did you first learn to speak? Did you read a speach theory book? No, you were ear trained by your parents and you worked at it till you spoke your first words. So it is the same with any instrument, repetitive listening to the tune played correctly imprints the notes in your brain. Then when you play the tune you automatically want too search for the right notes. It works great, part of the core learning thats proven to work. When we start a new song at a lesson we listen to it together a few times even. Suzuki also believed that this motivated the student to want to learn. Ear training is very important.
As far as graded repertoire, children like what they can do. Accomplishment and praise is probably their single greatest motivator. Educated types call this positive reinforcement. Start easy and build skills to more complicated things. Then go back to the easy songs and apply the more complicated skills to develop creativity and improvisation.
"All that crap about 10,000 repetitions is pretty comical when you realize the cult members actually want to avoid all the technical stuff because they believe its academic trivia"
I dont believe its 10,000 repetitions but http://www.bbc.com/future/stor.....-rule-myth but the core belief is that you must dedicate yourself to the task, take a focused approach, and self evaluate to improve. It does take several years for some, not so much for others.
"There is very little interest in classical music on this site. Its not surprising that a hostile attitude towards disciplined learning is prevalent."
really? thats your takeaway? I dont think that most of the new people on this site understand what disciplined learning is. The older members (myself included) are set in our ways, probably because we figured out what works for us. I find a tremendous interest in classical music on this very diverse site. Since not all music is classical, its refreshing. I personally am finding a preference in the genres of swing, blues and such that I couldnt identify as an actual interest early on. IF you come up with something thats not bashing the others, proven to work and can be readily learned I am all about it. I actually thought about Simon Fischers "Scales" book that teaches all that conservatory stuff. Ive not heard about the books you mentioned previously but will def check em out.
I truley think you are stuck on a "only one truley effective way to learn" mindset. I have to dissagree. I do think we all have the same/similar destination that we strive for...ie musical happiness with our own playing regardless of level or ability. I dont think we are all going to get there the same way, and your way seems most complicated.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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RosinedUp said
LOL, somebody one-starred me two more times.
You do realize that you were just begging mischievous, fun-loving cyber-gremlins to one-star you when you brought that whole thing up, right?
EDIT: And, no, I am not one of them. LOL
When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,
I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.
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That was an accidental 2 star! was checking out the system on ur post was not meant as editorial comment. Sorry can not be undone.
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I have to agree with Picklefish on some points in particular.
I see nothing wrong with someone starting learning a piece by listening to it.
While there can be some value in having students play by sight from unfamiliar score as a test of their ability to read.. After the grades are given for that, I would consider it more akin to a parlour trick than a necessity.
I feel the study of a piece, be it great or small, should involve listening to it being performed by people who are particularly good at playing it. Different performances by the same people when possible, as well as versions by assorted artists. Studying the historical context of the piece can also be good, where possible. Understand the piece, get to know it and try to understand what the composer may have meant when writing it. Appreciate it before attempting to play it.
If I want to learn a song or piece, I will usually immerse myself in it as much as possible, and experience it as music before attempting to play it, if I can. I feel the goal is more to play the piece with appropriate expression than to strictly mechanically replicate pitches. A midi or sampler software can do that, as could the player piano and music box.
There is more than one musical goal for the assorted members of this community, and more than one way of getting to those goals. Obsessing over finding "the best way" can be counterproductive, when compared with getting started with the work of learning.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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I feel the study of a piece, be it great or small, should involve listening to it being performed by people who are particularly good at playing it. Different performances by the same people when possible, as well as versions by assorted artists. Studying the historical context of the piece can also be good, where possible. Understand the piece, get to know it and try to understand what the composer may have meant when writing it. Appreciate it before attempting to play it.
Yep!!!! > Thats the ticket. I so totally agree with you on that DanielB > To become one with the piece is the true expression of the piece be it a copy or one of your own.
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I think probably people have built-in ways of "filling in the blanks" of the twelve points of the octave (seven points if you want to be diatonic about it).
If someone drew a line on a piece of paper, probably you would have some ideas about how to make a mark at the midpoint of the line, without using a ruler. Maybe you could do a fair job of dividing the line into thirds or quarters. People would have varying abilities to do those things.
Maybe you could cut a pie into twelve wedges so that all the slices varied in size by no more than ten percent. Certainly you would not do it best by making twelve separate cuts from the center to the edge.
In part I take a kind of divide-and-conquer approach to dividing the octave into intervals.
In my intonation training lately (I expect my habits will change as my ear improves) I try to use as many pitch reference points (reference intervals, if you prefer) as possible. That implies that the intervals to be divided will be smaller and hopefully that the results will be more precise.
So I play open strings whenever possible and listen for sympathetic ringing of open strings. And the electronic tuner is always on in case I want to check my work. How I hit the pitches at the other points of the octave is somewhat mysterious, but as I hint above, I think there must be some built-in ability to divide intervals, just as we can divide a circle or a line by eyeball, without a protractor or ruler.
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Try learning the violin the Ruggiero Ricci way in his book: Ricci on Glissando,
http://www.ruggieroricci.com/r.....rdings.htm
First exercise: You play a F-Major scale on 1 string (E string) while bowing the E and A strings at the same time. The A string is a drone which you measure against with your ear. So you place one finger on the E string next to the nut and slide (glissando) it until your ear knows when to stop for the first note (F). Thus you would need to know what a major 6th is from the open A string in order to find the first note.
"When moving from one note to the next using the same finger, we must rely on the ear to tell us where to stop the finger. ....When we teach this way, we are training the ear and teaching how to accurately measure the distance between notes. ...Since good intonation, the final objective of a good technique, is based on the relationship between notes, only double and not single-note practice is of any value for ear training. Single note practice bypasses the ear because there is no fixed point from which to measure; it represents little more than an inefficient form of finger exercise."
Ricci never explains where this ability to recognize intervals is supposed to come from. Supposedly, practicing within some computer based ear trainer is good enough.
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@Composer: I must have misunderstood some of your previous arguments, since I thought you opposed the idea of practising against drone notes for working on intonation. Whether they are from a string of the violin or from an external source would give the same result, since the pitch should be the same. Other than aesthetic considerations, the principle would be the same in practice.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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Not only that, but hes talking about doing a scale! I thought scales were pointless?
I dont see how a beginner is gonna be able to learn from Ricci since it clearly states its for the serious violinist.
still, If I had the dough Id definately take a stab at the book and dvd since I think everyone could learn something technique wise that might be helpful.
@Composer feel free to bootleg me a copy of yours and email it if you wanna. I love stuff like that.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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INteresting link > Ruggiero Ricci > dude Rocks!!! has a bit of Shawn Lane in him but not as smooth. Different instruments, > but its all music.
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unfortunately he passed away last year. I had never heard of him.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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Here are my thoughts on what I've read in this discussion so far.
Ricci's book is very good, but it's not for beginners.
I think it's quite difficult for a violin beginner to be taught about intervals on the violin itself, because of the difficulty in sounding two strings together (not just one) cleanly.
What many teachers do (me included) is to demonstrate intervals using a piano keyboard. That way the basic sounds of two notes together (eg 4ths, 5ths, octaves) are easily grasped and remembered.
Playing notes against a drone is helpful too, and imo, a very much underused technique. A drone can be an open string (eg D), or sounded from an external source. There are drones in all keys available on the web, and on this site too. If you ever doubt the importance of them, just remember how much drones feature in Indian music (and that has a much stricter system of intonation than western music does).
All the resources for learning about intervals and improving intonation are freely available on the web, and good teachers will utilize them if they want to.
As a precursor to improving your intonation, it's often a good idea to check your own perception of intonation, just to make sure that it's of a good standard. An example - just listening to your teacher play a simple scale deliberately badly, and checking that you can identify the wrong notes, and to what degree are they false.
Most will pick up on the wrong notes - however, a small percentage won't, because they can't - and never will. Not a hearing problem, but an inability to recognize false pitch. If that's the case, no amount of teaching and practice will be of any use whatever.
I'd fully expect beginners to play out of tune, simply because they have so much else to concentrate on, and through time the mechanics of playing become much less of a struggle, and so intonation improves.
As the player progresses, he / she will probably refine intonation even further - eg playing a two-note chord of C#+open E will sound sweeter if the C# is played fractionally flat. Another example - playing a Cnat+open E will sound richer if the C natural is sharpened by a fraction.
An even simpler example would be a one-octave ascending scale starting on open D. A truly sweet-sounding scale would have the F# and C# very slightly flat - flat in comparison to those same notes played on a piano.
A beginner who already plays another instrument has a technical and musical advantage, however slight. A complete beginner on violin, with no experience of any other instrument effectively has a blank canvas with no starting point.
One last thing - I'm not suggesting that everyone here is a beginner - I know that's certainly not the case 
Mr Jim
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Mr. Jim: "...but it's not for beginners"
Thats because playing two tones at once screws up the electronic tuner. Haha. Double stops are avoided like the plague because thats when you have to have an ear that can recognize intervals. But interval recognition is supposed to be a skill easily assimilated by a beginner. Thats what Pierre said.
Mr. Jim: "I think it's quite difficult for a violin beginner to be taught about intervals on the violin itself, because of the difficulty in sounding two strings together (not just one) cleanly."
No harder than mastering string crossing. Sounding two strings is part of every open string exercise book which is the first exercise book that should be completed.
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Worldfiddler said
I'd fully expect beginners to play out of tune, simply because they have so much else to concentrate on, and through time the mechanics of playing become much less of a struggle, and so intonation improves.
playing a two-note chord of C#+open E will sound sweeter if the C# is played fractionally flat. Another example - playing a Cnat+open E will sound richer if the C natural is sharpened by a fraction.
An even simpler example would be a one-octave ascending scale starting on open D. A truly sweet-sounding scale would have the F# and C# very slightly flat
Thank you for these excellent tips, Mr Jim, which answered quite a few questions I've been wondering.
Thanks again.
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Well, maybe someone completely new to music would avoid them. But if one learned music on instruments with frets or keys first, then you are kind of used to often playing at least 2 notes at a time at certain moments, and you also have at least some idea what those interval parts (I still have trouble calling anything with only 2 notes a "chord") sound like.
At the risk of sounding very atypical, being a guitar player, playing simple doublestops to play the violin rather in the fashion of "rhythm guitar" was one of the first things I figured out to do. It allowed for being able to play along with familiar song recordings and videos even from the first few days, and I found it very comforting when dealing with the initial frustrations of the instrument.
However, you can figure out pretty quickly from prevailing attitudes and the sorts of songs folks are working on in places like this, that being able to play the "rhythm part" of "Louie Louie" or "Johnny Be Good" are apparently somewhat dubious accomplishments. LOL As such, probably better to talk about simple trad melodies you are working on. Some folks, I noted, have this notion that the violin has to be a "respectable" sort of instrument, and so working on "boogie patterns" or old rock bits is maybe best usually not mentioned in such polite company.
But, to do a reasonable basic "Johnny Be Good" does take playing at least 5th interval parts, and root-4th as well, to get much of the sound. Then you want the root-6th. And it doesn't take much thinking from there to figure out you can get the vi "Em chord" by voicing the 3rd in the bass (playing the E on the D string and the G string open). That does give you at least a pretty good idea where your fingers need to go for your early scales and for work on melody.
Most of what I have just mentioned is probably pretty much "Greek" to the average beginner here. And "When in Rome.. It is probably not a good idea to talk too much or too loudly about what a great Emperor Alexander the Great was, compared to the current Caesar", if you catch my drift? LOL
That is, however, part of how I approached the instrument. Since I consider it best to tackle something like learning an instrument from one's strengths first, and then use those to address one's weaknesses.
And yes, violin is not limited to the equal tempering of the guitar and keyboard instruments. Which is one of the main reasons I decided to learn it. To break those "chains".
But still, I maintain it could be pretty hard for a complete beginner at music to try and identify intervals (played simultaneous or sequential). I had some idea what they should sound like from having played other instruments for years, and had initially learned them from uneducated tinkering on a keyboard instrument.
To come to my point, doublestops are not something at all beyond beginner capabilities. If one is used to them already from perhaps guitar, they are one of the easiest and most familiar things one can do on a violin in even the first few days of playing. The simple root-5th doublestop is just bringing one finger down on 2 strings, for cripe's sake. Yes, it could be difficult at first to play both those notes steady and with good tone. So, cheat. Play them with short durations on the beat and a fairly strong "spiccato". When in doubt or if you get lost, "comp" (just tap the bow on the strings without bowing a note and while the strings are muted with the left hand") along with the snare until you figure out what to do next.
I think it does definitely help for figuring out the fingering/intonation, but what I feel is more important, is that it allows a beginner to play along with "real music" from a pretty early point.
If any of that makes any sense to anyone at all.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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Composer : "Thats because playing two tones at once screws up the electronic tuner. Haha."
An electronic tuner is a tool to help to tune the violin. It has no function in practising, least of all when playing two notes, or two open strings, or a double stop. You should not be using it for any other purpose than to ensure your instrument is in tune. It is not a practice aid for intonation, eg, like a metronome is for time-keeping.
Composer : "Double stops are avoided like the plague because thats when you have to have an ear that can recognize intervals. But interval recognition is supposed to be a skill easily assimilated by a beginner. Thats what Pierre said. "
Pierre is correct.
Interval recognition is a very basic skill to be learned. As I said before, using a piano keyboard will help with this, both aurally and visually, as you can clearly see and hear the intervals you make when you (or your teacher) hit the piano keys. It cannot be simplified any more than this. When you understand, and can identify intervals on a piano keyboard, then you can start playing intervals on the violin by using double stops, or playing the interval notes singly and consecutively.
I'm sorry if Suzuki books or any other method don't explain interval recognition, but I'm explaining it now. OK?
Mr Jim
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@Worldfiddler- you typed "Playing notes against a drone is helpful too, and imo, a very much underused technique. A drone can be an open string (eg D), or sounded from an external source."
I believe this is what composer is advocating. Ive heard it described as "ghosting" the note by the Sassmanhaus method dude, Ricci calls it glissando.
@Daniel - I feel you since chords are played on other instruments, I have no objection to refering to two notes played together as an interval.
@Composer- much of modern training focuses on the intonation of single notes without intervals being played either in succession or unison. The creates the impression that playing intervals in unison is difficult, which it is not. I agree that it should be taught from the beginning. Pierre has a great exercised for intervals in one of his free books on his site.
@Worldfiddler- "It is not a practice aid for intonation, eg, like a metronome is for time-keeping"
I have to disagree with you escpecially when beginners are concerned. Using a tuner helped reinforce my fingerings when I wasnt getting them dead on, It was very helpful in identifying wrong notes or notes that werent right enough until my ear was trained enough to be reliable. Of course I am not formally trained either so I was using whatever I could to solve my problem. As far as metronome is concerned I love it for bowing practice but not for performance practice if that makes sence. I dont want a mechanical sound to my bowing I guess is the theory. For increasing fingering speed or figuring out a tempo a Metro cant be beat. IMO.
Mark Oconnors method is the only one Ive seen that encourages interval training and recognition but only just barely, 1 page in the back of the book lists all the intervals, ha ha. oh well, Ive added it to my repetoire daily.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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Composer said : "Thats because playing two tones at once screws up the electronic tuner. Haha."
@Pfish : I may have misunderstood the purpose of this. A tuner is a reference tool, and as we all know, it's a tool to help you tune the violin.
If you are being taught by a teacher, it is likely that he will demonstrate single notes, or two-note intervals using his violin (or in some cases a piano - that is better for actually seeing the notes played). It is unlikely he will use a tuner for anything other than tuning, although it's up to him.
If you are teaching yourself, then you can use a piano keyboard (real or virtual) to help with intonation, or even simply getting the right notes. You used a tuner, and that's your call, but if it helped you, then no one can argue with its use in those circumstances.
I think my main point to composer was that a tuner is monophonic, so could not be used to verify two-note intervals on the violin. (I know there are polyphonic guitar tuners around, but it's unlikely a beginning violinist would want to spend so much money on what really is overkill)
Hope that clarifies things.
One last point as an aside : you mentioned using a metronome for practice. There is a common perception that using one will make you sound mechanical. Well, if you only ever played one note per click, and nothing else, with spot-on accuracy, you would. However, it can also be used as an aid to practice in "performance" mode.
Imagine playing an Irish fiddle reel, or a bluegrass breakdown. Fairly quick tunes, with maybe eight or even sixteen notes per metronome click. You could still play the tune with all the accents, swing (unequal time division between notes) and all the expressions abd musical nuances to make the tune sound good and lively, *as long as* you were playing the first of the eight note / sixteen note group *exactly on* the click.
This enforces good timing, and also stops the dreaded tendency to speed up. So, if you start at 130 BPM, you end at 130 BPM. All the best Nashville session musicians know the importance of 'sitting on the click' in a recording studio.
As I said, that's just an aside
Mr Jim 
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@Worldfiddler - Well then I would have to agree with you. (Just playin a bit of devils advocate really)
Im with you on the monophonicallistically characteristic of the tuner....I use one. I agree that you need to hear the difference in the two notes and that playing one slightly flat or slightly sharp improves the sound.,.I first saw a pro tune my violin by ear and then tweak the strings slightly sharp or flat relative to each other. I brought the instrument home and checked it with the tuner to find that was the case. It was really confusing at first.
I started really using the metronome to fix my tendency to drag notes so that I could finish in time. pretty much exactly as you described, making sure to always keep the first beat in time. It has really helped me.
As always your advise is sound, hope I didnt rile you up any. Pfish.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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