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You may not wish to play anything in a Flat Key, but if you try some - maybe a leettle struggle at first, then once you get past that... some tunes just sound RIGHT in a flat key!
Tunes were written in a flat key for different reasons - I think it all depends on what music it is & who you are playing with.
I never wanted any obstacle preventing me from playing along with any recording.
From Keys Thread (2024):
I hear a lot of great music to play on the fiddle - in flat keys.
Ethnic folk music, blues, jazz, etc... have plenty of flats/flat keys, even if you only consider G Minor - MANY trad Irish tunes listed at thesession.org in G minor that I like (and other flat keys, too)!
Related discussion at The Session:
Your Favorite Tunes in the "Flat" Keys. FMaj, BbMaj, Gdor, Gmin (Irish & Scottish).
I believe a lot of Scottish music (especially in relation to GH Bagpipes) use flats/flat keys.
Once there is 2 or more flats in a key signature, I know my pinky finger is going to get a workout!
Geez, well over a year & I've gone down another rabbit hole.
I understand some keys sound better naturally on the fiddle, and I probably like more than most because I have more strings that can resonate.
Something happened last year that got me more interested in looking at tunes with flats to learn - when I accidentally composed a tune using Cmin.
From pg 14 of my blog (2024):
Whew!
Felt MUCH better playing 'Wistful Thinking' today!
Can't really understand why the Cm stuff gave me grief yesterday. 🤔... come to think of it, not so sure I've ever played anything in Cm (before this).
Ah HA! Looked to see what tunes The Session had in Cm... they don't even have Cm as a key option you can search for! 😳 🤣
...still missed a couple of those fancy staccatos, though.
I don't have ANY problems with this now (played it on & off enough), maybe everything else just seems easier because of it?
Started to notice I was playing tunes I heard in flat keys & it didn't even dawn on me what they were! I hadn't played 'Fly By Night Hornpipe' (version I learned from a Joe Burke accordion recording) for quite a while, so looked at the session to see if I was playing it right (it's pretty much the 4th setting) - surprise... EbMaj, but shows the wrong key because there is no choice (later I found a work-around).
After that it seemed like 'Flat Keys' were coming out of the woodwork at me! I had started learning 'Zito The Bubbleman', and again - no settings on The Session matched the recording I'm learning from (I've since added the setting in BbMix!). Love I've been playing Roslyn Castle in Cm - 3 flats! Ran across more, but I'm brain-dead at the moment. 😵💫
The strange thing to me (for some time now) - the issue of VERY LIMITED FLAT keys available in the search drop-down box on The Session.
Well... curiosity got the cat & I had to start a rabbit hole of a discussion there a few days ago, which is pretty interesting - been learning a lot.
Views on Bb Major & Eb Major in Playing ITM and Trad Scottish Tunes? on The Session
Suppose some folks are going to be sorry I ever learned anything about ABC notation and the 'Modal Circle of Fifths'.
...flats, flats, flats, flats, flats.
...and this too, shall pass - but I'll probably be a bit obsessed for a bit.
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i think its great youre experimenting/learning the ABC notation! as far as flat key signatures, itll be for a specific tune or version of a tune not for the sake of playing in a flat key.
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Bb and Eb are comfortable keys because they are a semitone above the open strings. Same for Ab if you don't mind starting that low. They don't require any pinky stretch (violists like them for that reason - and Db starting on the C string). Each scale played over an octave has the same fingering.
They are also comfortable for double-stopping for beginners - e.g. Eb in sixths begins with the open G string and Eb on the D string.
Mahler's second symphony has a passage in Gb (6 flats). This is not as frightening as you might think, as long as you work out the right fingering and use your ears.
Andrew
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@ABitRusty -
I never used to seek out tunes in the flat keys - just all of the sudden noticed I was attracted to recordings of tunes that used them... figured there must be something to it. I haven't 'deliberately' sought them out (yet), haven't even tried out any flat tunes I didn't know that were suggested on The Session (yet) - have my hands full as it is.
About ABC's - I did discover even if a tune is in a key not available for searching, or submitting on The Session, searching in a 'relative key' (from the drop-down box) yields results.
AND, when submitting a tune in a 'nonexistent key' on The Session - a 'relative key' has to be chosen, but the desired key can be added at the beginning of the ABC body. Both keys will show up in the setting ABC display, but it's better than nothing.
A surprise bit of the discussion on The Session arises from piper tuning - and what is considered the pitch of 'A'... even 'Concert Pitch' is an issue when not A440!
Took me a while to realize just how used to learning/playing/listening in A440 I am, but when I think about it - even Baroque music is generally accepted as tuned down a half step... so all open strings are 'flat' (compared to what we perceive as 'normal').
GHB's are similar, only tuned higher - so if I hear Bb (or slightly higher), they 'hear/think' they are playing 'A' (same with Eb vs D).
This did have my head spinning the first time I saw old piper tunes notated without accidentals - and raises questions about sight-reading ANY old sheet music. No tuning fork before 1711, and that didn't spread overnight.
I REALLY don't want to have to deal with transposing instruments and concert pitch other than A440 when sharing music! 😖 I'm pretty sure the PLAYBACK AUDIO on The Session is in A440!
@Gordon Shumway -
Thanks.
I don't think playing them is hard, just different - maybe a different mindset when sight-reading, too?
I remember when I first played Cmin - had to think about things like do I want to shorten an interval with one finger, or stretch with the other finger (I don't always choose the same one).
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Pretty interesting, a wide variety of views/opinions from folks who play different instruments - as the discussion on The Session continues!
So, some playing ITM & trad Scottish music like playing in flat keys & even enjoy 'Flat Key' sessions - where fiddlers might change the tuning on the violin just to play the finger patterns they're used to.
Some recognize natural bleed-over of flat keys from Scottish/Irish/English cross migration (the border area sessions) - and some recognize folks will also learn from/playing along with recordings.
Some feel it's wrong to learn from recordings, or even use The Session 'play-back' feature, because it's not the actual 'sound' (relative to our A440) that matters, but the 'intent' of some pipers, flute/whistle players (& others)... to play in specific keys, even though they tune differently. So, they don't want to see any different notation.
The discussion is all geared around traditional session playing, of course - so folks who want to learn to play these trad tunes outside this venue (where no sessions exist), aren't taken into consideration.
I still think The Session playback feature is good to help get notes memorized.
I also see there's MANY examples (on The Session) where folks submit settings for what they hear from someone's playing on a recording.
As a Fiddler - why not challenge ourselves & learn to play tunes in a few different keys, including flats? Can't, don't want to, or don't have time? There's always next week, next month, next year (think positive 🙄)!
Also, can't help but thinking - why not learn to change tonality, too? To me, this really speaks to the heart of MUSIC - not just copying/playing traditional tunes, but proactively causing what we play to change in tandem with our own personal moods (maybe topic for another discussion, but some trad tunes already kinda do this). Become familiar with playing in different modes. The 'Modal Circle of Fifths Chart' helps us see how a phrase can change just by playing a different note as the tonic (all notes in the original tune scale can become relative keys).
😒... still can't believe I haven't found a cartoon/gif anywhere that has 3 (or more) musicians gathered together - each, in turn, saying:
"Noooo... THIS is an 'A'!"
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ELCBK said
You may not wish to play anything in a Flat Key, but if you try some - maybe a leettle struggle at first, then once you get past that... some tunes just sound RIGHT in a flat key!
Tunes were written in a flat key for different reasons - I think it all depends on what music it is & who you are playing with.
I never wanted any obstacle preventing me from playing along with any recording.
From Keys Thread (2024):
For me, there is no difference in playing anything in a flat key signature. They sound the same to me, except obviously they will start on a different note.
Minor keys are a different story.
To give you an example of what I mean, I transposed the last Christmas project 1st violin part to a key with 3 flats, Eb. It sounds the same but starts a third lower. I could obviously have transposed it up instead of down.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@Fiddlerman -
I agree with you, but doesn't one of your examples resonant more on the the fiddle than the other?
One of the things that makes the violin/viola/cello so attractive to me - any key is available to play.
Are there proportionally more Classical pieces in keys with sharps vs flats, or pretty much equal?
When it comes to learning different genres, I find each may be known for using certain keys more than others, sometimes because of the the type of instrument a tune is composed on. There are also some fingering patterns that are 'typical' for different genres (string crossings, ornaments, or droning strings) - these CAN feel more comfortable for me (as a fiddler) to play in certain keys.
I used to feel some keys can have 'uncomfortable/awkward' fingering, especially if unexpected in the genre, but I think a lot depends on the melody contour & harmony, maybe how complicated the structure is.
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For me, the key won't make it resonate more, but the pitch might. If it's lower it could resonate more base wise, and it might sound more brilliant if we play it higher. So for that reason, we need to modulate.
I have no idea if there are more classical pieces written in less common key signatures vs folk music. It's a great question, If you find out, please share.
If you are used to a key signature, or play particular scales and arpeggios more often, it will obviously be easier for you to play in that key signature. 🙂
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@Fiddlerman -
Thanks, that's very interesting!
Just notice some keys use scales with more notes that cause sympathetic string vibration on my fiddle - so they sound better to me.
I do imagine EVERY NOTE must sound amazing on a more fabulous fiddle! 😄
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I don't know whether I've played in sharp or flat keys more often, my guess is that it's not far from equal. It's worth remembering that orchestral music isn't written for any single instrument, and wind players tend to favor flat keys.
I also personally have a slight preference for flat keys because I find it easier to read flats than sharps, possibly from having played brass instruments before string instruments.
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@AndrewH -
Thanks!
Really appreciate your view on reading music notation with flats!
I learned MUCH more about woodwinds, pipes & how different tunings can be viewed on The Session discussion. Huge difference between how these folks deal with different keys vs an orchestral flautist.
...maybe this is weird, but it's easier for me to think about pulling a finger backward a half step for a flat, than making sure I reach far enough for a sharp.
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Just out of curiosity, I did a survey of the starting key signatures in all of the symphonies I've played. Haven't looked at other pieces, it was quickest to just look at the symphonies because the keys are often listed right in the title.
There's a noticeable tendency toward flat keys. Of the 49 symphonies I've played, 18 start in keys with sharps, 24 start in keys with flats, and 7 start with no key signature (C major, A minor, or in one case atonal). All the key signatures ranging from 3 flats to 2 sharps are common. Only two start in keys with more than 2 sharps (one in A major, one in E major) and three start in keys with more than 3 flats (two in F minor, one in A-flat major), none start in keys with 5 or more sharps or flats.
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@AndrewH -
That IS interesting.
I did find a cool little student study (I thought seemed pretty reliable) - a proportion study of keys used by 10 composers (Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky & Rachmaninoff).
On the Usage of Musical Keys: A Descriptive Statistical Perspective (pdf link)
...Ab minor was the least favorite key. 🤣
BUT, 1 & 2 flats didn't rank too bad!
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ELCBK said
I did find a cool little student study...
...Ab minor was the least favorite key.
Speaking as someone who once tracked down a student study for a post-grad Greek essay, 
And what's the relative major of Ab minor?
Cb! I hope that's your point. And it's a good illustration of how mindless student studies are.
Andrew
Verified human - the ignominy!
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@Gordon Shumway -
Did you look over the study?
Here, the key associated with each work is that officially assigned to that work
according to IMSLP. For example, the key associated with Beethoven’s 5th
symphony is C minor, regardless of the key changes within the first
movement, or across the various movements.
It was also suggested the study be extended to include comparison by form & instruments.
The study basically told me none of those composers liked to start with a bunch of accidentals.
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ELCBK said
@Gordon Shumway -
Did you look over the study?
No, you made it sound terrible (and I'm on an android phone all weekend). I play in a symphony orchestra. I play what I have to play. Chopin on the piano often had many accidentals, but someone composing for an orchestra will have the string sections uppermost in their mind, rarely the clarinets. Clarinets come in three main keys, and they have to make do. Here's a question for you to research - if you have clarinets in A, Bb and in Eb, then why not in C?
Andrew
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I'm only suggesting there's some REALLY GREAT music to learn in flat keys.
Some flat keys (I wasn't used to) felt a little different/awkward at first, but certainly wasn't any more difficult than playing tunes with sharps.
I'm sure it's all about practice - what we become accustomed to.
There's musicians that play different styles/genres & instruments (besides ITM fiddlers) that visit 'The Session' site. Session-playing may differ some, depending on locale, but the discussion there (link in OP) gives insight as to what some different session players feel about introducing tunes in flat keys into this social realm of playing music.
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