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Trouble playing A Time For Us
Theme from Romeo and Juliet
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (4 votes) 
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RDP
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March 8, 2022 - 5:02 pm
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I'm having problems with the bowing in this piece.  For instance, in bar 13 there's a repeat - ok, no problem - but in bar 14 there's a second repeat which is a problem.

The last set of 8th notes in bar 13 are designated in the score as a slur upbow.  The first note in bar 14 (B) isn't designated on my score but the next note is a designated downbow (after the pause).  Assuming that the non designated B is a downbow because of the prior upbow 8th notes in bar 13, then what results is:

Downbow B

pause

Downbow E

repeat

Downbow G (in bar 2)

 

Alternatively, assuming the undesignated B in bar 14 is an upbow because of the designated E following it after the pause; then there are 2 upbows in a row - the slurred 8th notes in bar 13 and the upbow E in bar 14.  This results in 2 upbows followed immediately (after the pause) by 2 downbows.

 

I've watched Fiddlerman's tutorial and can't seem to figure it out even playing the video in super slow mo mode.  Mostly because my screen freezes at this point. Fiddlerman mentions playing quick upbows and downbows to avoid running out of bow on the 8th notes but I still can't quite get my head around it.

I need help to figure this out.

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SharonC
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March 8, 2022 - 6:36 pm
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@RDP 

I’m assuming you’re using Fiddlerman’s version? (attachment)

Bar 14 repeat – I think it’s safe to say the repeat sign there is an error. 

Reading what you’ve wrote, just to be clear:  When you start, you play beginning of piece to 1st repeat (bar 13), then go back to measure 2 (the beginning repeat sign), then play thru again thru bar 12, then after you play bar 12, you go directly to bar 14 (2nd ending) – you do not play bar 13 (1st ending) again.  After you play bar 14, you continue to the end of the piece.

Bar 14 bowing: Bar 12 would have you down bow slur for the 1st two 8th notes, then up bow on the two quarter notes, so that brings you to down bow starting on the half note of bar 14. 

After the half note in bar 14, you would then (after the 8th note rest) continue a down bow for the 8th note. Bar 13 ends differently because you are going back to measure 2 to start on a down bow.  After bar 14, you are continuing on to bar 15, starting on an up bow.  Again, the repeat at bar 14 is an error.

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RDP
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March 9, 2022 - 2:40 pm
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@SharonC are you saying to skip bar 13 after the first repeat and just go from bar 12 to bar 14 instead?

 

I do understand that the second repeat is an error and to disregard it.

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SharonC
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March 9, 2022 - 6:12 pm
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RDP said
@SharonC are you saying to skip bar 13 after the first repeat and just go from bar 12 to bar 14 instead?

Yes.  You play from the beginning, do the repeat at the end of bar 13 (1st ending) back to bar 2.  Then when come to the end of bar 12 again, you do not do bar 13 (1st ending), but instead go on to bar 14 (2nd ending).  That's how repeats with 1st & 2nd endings work smile  See attached:

  RomeoJuliet_repeat.jpgImage Enlarger

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RDP
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March 9, 2022 - 7:24 pm
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I didn't know that.  (Which illustrates my absolute n00b-i-ness when it comes to music.)

Now if only I can get my fat fingers and bowing to cooperate I might be able to play more than the first phrase.

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SharonC
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March 9, 2022 - 9:25 pm
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@RDP I'm glad you asked the question.  There's probably a lot of folks out there in the Fiddlerman Forum-verse that don't know it, either. 

I played in school band as a kid, so I learned it then.  Everyone is new to music at some point smile

Here's a site that explains some repeats in music:

https://readsheetmusic.info/re.....code.shtml

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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RDP
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March 10, 2022 - 11:40 am
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SharonC said
@RDP I'm glad you asked the question.  There's probably a lot of folks out there in the Fiddlerman Forum-verse that don't know it, either. 

I played in school band as a kid, so I learned it then.  Everyone is new to music at some point smile

Here's a site that explains some repeats in music:

https://readsheetmusic.info/re.....code.shtml

  

I skipped school as much as I could.

 

I did run into another jam.  In bar 8 there's a quarter note that ends up being an upbow after bowing all the notes from the marked upbow in bar 2.  The problem is that in bar 9 there's a half note that has to be an upbow also because of the designated upbow in bar 10.  Otherwise the half note in the first part of Bar 10 ends up being an upbow.

No matter how you play it, there are 2 upbows in a row somewhere in those 3 bars in order to play the marked upbow in bar 10.

Currently I'm slurring the quarter note in bar 8 with the half note in bar 9.  It works but I know that's not correct because the bar 9 half note is dotted and, if I play it the way it's notated and extend the half note, I run out of bow.

 

Is this what everyone does when they play this piece?

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SharonC
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March 10, 2022 - 9:27 pm
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@RDP

Typically, you'd alternate bowing until you come to an annotated change.  So, in bar 10, there is an annotated upbow (quarter note) because if you are alternating since bar 2, this quarter note would be a down bow. 

If I were playing this, I would continue the pattern until that annotation.  So, I would play the down bow for the dotted half note in bar 9, then an upbow on half note in bar 10 followed by another upbow (as annotated) on the quarter note.

I've attached the bowings I'd use for the tune:

  RomJulbowings.jpgImage Enlarger

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RDP
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March 11, 2022 - 3:23 pm
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Thank you!

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Katie M
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I tried to learn this and had a lot of trouble with understanding what I was supposed to do. I’ve lost my music now but I’m pretty sure it looked like Sharon’s post with the colours! So thanks Sharon for that 😀 I found it really tough going how you getting on now RDP ?

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SharonC
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March 12, 2022 - 12:54 pm
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RDP
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March 12, 2022 - 2:32 pm
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Katie M said
I tried to learn this and had a lot of trouble with understanding what I was supposed to do. I’ve lost my music now but I’m pretty sure it looked like Sharon’s post with the colours! So thanks Sharon for that 😀 I found it really tough going how you getting on now RDP ?

  

I can get all the way through.  For the most part it sounds awful after the first repeat.  A few bits and pieces sound like they should, but the second phrase needs a lot more work before I'll even consider saying that I can "play it."  The first phrase is lovely sounding though.  Very haunting but peaceful at the same time.

Sharon's bowing strategy solves my bow direction issue and makes bar 10 simple because all I need to do is bridge the second finger between A and D when playing the C half-note on the upbow for A2, pause for a micro second as I rock the bow over to the 2nd finger on D, and continue the upbow.   I do have to really slow the bow speed down for the dotted C half-note so I have enough bow left for the F quarter-note on D2 but it's do-able.

Bar 11 then meshes right in by rocking the bow back to the A string for the 3rd finger D downbow.  Very fast and simple and at 3/4 beat there's a lot of time to get it done without tensing and fumbling.  The 2 combined upbows are also very reminiscent of the slurred D in bar 1 of Bach's Minuet No. 1 (D, D-D) only adding the string change from A to D into the upbow pause.

 

I also think the way I begin to learn a new piece is different from what I've seen others do it.  In the tutorial I'm following as well as in the various tutorials here it seems like the technique is to play, play, play until you get it all together at once.  Instead of learning a piece that way, I only play the first bar until I have the physical movements down.  Then I play the second bar until I get that one figured out.  Then I add them together and play them a few times before moving on to the next bar and learning those moves and adding them to the sequence.

Once I have the entire line, I practice that until it's solid and sounds like it should.  After that happens I'll move on to the next line the next day or 2 and go back to adding each individual bar to what I already know how to play and extending everything until Fin.

Listening to the piece being played also helps me a lot because I'm listening for the "timing" of the notes in the individual bars.  I also don't care about the bar markers and will add notes from the next bar in order to get the "timing" correct.

 

Sorry for rambling.  I don't really have anyone to discuss these new "learning revelations" with.

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SharonC
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March 12, 2022 - 5:22 pm
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RDP said... I only play the first bar until I have the physical movements down.  Then I play the second bar until I get that one figured out.  Then I add them together and play them a few times before moving on to the next bar and learning those moves and adding them to the sequence...

@RDP

You’re going to find that a lot of violin practice involves this.  The more you practice, you will find that you have more phrases that are easier to play because you relate them to what you have already learned (like in the way you related to the D,D-D in the Bach minuet). But you will always have phrases that you need to slow down, break down, repeat many times, then put back together. 

...Listening to the piece being played also helps me a lot because I'm listening for the "timing" of the notes in the individual bars.  I also don't care about the bar markers and will add notes from the next bar in order to get the "timing" correct.

Perfectly sensible, too.  You shouldn’t let bar markers restrain you from practicing a phrase that bridges across bars.  Listening to a piece to get what phrases are supposed to sound like is very helpful. 

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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Fiddlerman
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March 14, 2022 - 3:02 pm
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@SharonC - Thanks for explaining this for those who don't know.
I'm really behind in reading all the posts. I'm happy to see these questions as they help many others with similar questions.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Katie M
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March 14, 2022 - 3:36 pm
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Sounds good RDP will love to see a vid at some point ! I haven’t tried to play it for a while but it’s one I know I’ll go back to. Such a good tutorial as well Fiddlerman it’s the first one I came across! I’d love to be able to play it ~sigh~

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SharonC
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RDP
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Katie M said
Sounds good RDP will love to see a vid at some point ! I haven’t tried to play it for a while but it’s one I know I’ll go back to. Such a good tutorial as well Fiddlerman it’s the first one I came across! I’d love to be able to play it ~sigh~

  

I'm way behind in my video uploading to my YouTube channel.  Plus I need a better video setup, or at least a microphone I can plug into my phone to get better tone quality in the recordings.

At this point I have 2 "non Suzuki" pieces I want to record and upload, Inisheer and this one, but life is getting in the way right now.

Soon though.  Maybe.  When I do I'll stick them in the critique section.  It won't be today though because Johan Sebastian is being a pain in my Bach.

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RDP
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March 15, 2022 - 6:55 pm
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Katie M said
I tried to learn this and had a lot of trouble with understanding what I was supposed to do.

@Katie M 

Something struck me about what you posted here.  Is it that you don't know how to slur multiple notes into 1 bow stroke?  Or something else?

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Katie M
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March 16, 2022 - 4:58 pm
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No I just meant with the repeats. 

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RDP
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Ahh.  One of my problems too and I'm still having a little difficulty with it.  Sometimes the skip catches me by surprise and I'm like "What?"

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