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Sloop John B partial cover - octave strings
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Irv
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April 18, 2019 - 12:26 pm
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@BillyG and others.  A cogent explanation (once I remembered that Great Britain used 50 hertz electrical mains instead of the American 60 hertz).  Perhaps a further experiment.  I have read that a practice mute (the one that attaches to the bridge) works by impeding resonate frequencies but leaves the primaries largely attached.  Further insight may be obtained from such an observation.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 18, 2019 - 12:52 pm
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@Irv - thanks for the feedback !  Yes - it had not escaped me that our 50Hz mains hum can be present (the "studio" is reasonably electrically-quiet).   In other situations ( I sometimes record in the living room or front porch ) I'll often see 50, 100, 150 Hz (fairly low, admittedly) peaks if I'm driven to investigate something... (but that's not what the left-most peak is - if I get hum, it is bang on the 50, 100, 150 and immeasurable at 200 and beyond) 

The idea of using the mute is interesting.... That had never occurred to me....  I have a couple (rarely used) kicking around somewhere.....

Awesome, I'll give that a quick try before I transfer the octaves to the EV !

Good idea, thanks Irv !   🙂

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Irv
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April 18, 2019 - 1:23 pm
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@BillyG and others.  I got that tidbit from a “modern” complication of 19th century violin physics which goes on Amazon under the title “The History and Design of the Violin Bridge”.  

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 18, 2019 - 2:20 pm
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thumbs-up

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Irv
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April 18, 2019 - 11:37 pm
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@BillyG .  If you happen to have access to a caliper or a micrometer, I would be interested to learn the diameters of your octave strings.  

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 19, 2019 - 1:10 am
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@Irv - sure - here you go -

G - 1.21mm

D - 0.81mm

A - 0.65mm

E - 0.69mm  (yup, repeated measurement on both A and E shows the E marginally thicker)

They are the D'Addario Helicore Octaves - they say (and my comment in red) - "Helicore violin strings are crafted with a multi-stranded steel core, resulting in optimal playability while producing a clear, warm tone. The smaller string diameter provides quick bow response (perhaps so, but they could mean that as being relative to "other" octave strings - I find the G and D noticeably slower to respond than I had expected). Premium quality materials combined with skilled workmanship produces strings known for excellent pitch stability and longevity. (can't argue with that!) "

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 20, 2019 - 11:00 am
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An experiment using a mute on the G2.

The levels were clearly different between the unmuted and muted, and I attempted to normalize the muted version such that the highest amplitude harmonic (the 3rd as it happens) were more or less equal between the two images.  It is (fairly) clear that with the mute, sure, some of the higher harmonics drop-off more rapidly.

However, these was no real effect on the fundamental, it's still WAYYYYY down (as I suppose, we have to expect, G2 being outwith the physical resonating envelope of the standard 4/4 fiddle - the mute is not gonna change that - although - arguably - it MIGHT have had a "balancing out effect" (i.e. reducing the G3 and upward range, leaving more of the low G2 to "get through" - but - it looks like the mass of the mute (it's a dense rubber type) just deadens everything.   Had to investigate it though... LOL)

21-G2-Open-annotated.jpgImage Enlarger21-G2-Open+Mute-annotated.JPGImage Enlarger

 

EDIT:  My next step (to get a more realistic sound from the octave strings - well - perhaps a more "interesting" sound) was to fit them on my EV, which of course does not have the resonant response characteristics of an acoustic.   **BUT** it has just occurred to me - I have my old Chinese mass-produced "Skylark" fiddle restrung as a viola (C3, G3, D4, A4) - and the interesting thing about this is - I did that largely because the instrument was pretty much "dead" at anything above E5 (even with SP and bridge adjustments) - and - it actually resonates reasonably well down at C3 (not as good as a real viola, but, not a lot in it really)....  The G2 is a 5th down - so I'm just wondering what the Skylark's response is on a low G2....  hmmmm... definitely worth a try....

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Irv
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April 20, 2019 - 10:14 pm
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@BillyG and others.  From what I can remember of the article, bridge movement is comprised of two components.  The primary component is the up and down movement of the bass foot using the treble foot as a pivot point.  The bridge also rocks toward and away from the fingerboard.  The mute’s moment of inertia has more influence in the second component than the first component.  For what it is worth.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 21, 2019 - 5:56 am
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Indeed @Irv - I guess that sort of ties in -

Given that I "normalized" the amplitudes to get the highest amplitude (Harm3 / G4) visually about the same height between the un-muted and muted - yup - it can be seen on the muted trace that after G4 (just to left of the 300Hz marker) the amplitudes drop off more rapidly with the mute - and the mechanisms you describe are reasonable enough - makes sense !   But, I guess the real problem is that the original G2 resonance is so poor/low-level it's gonna take a whole lot of dampening of other resonances to make it (the fundamental) really obvious (to the ear).   A solid metal mute (which I do not own) might be quite different !   Dunno reallydunno, but not important any more  🙂 

Update to the try of the G2 on the Skylark - well - the fundamental IS higher (than on a better instrument), but it is obviously in the LF drop-off zone even for the Skylark (which, strung as a viola with the low C3 is "reasonable" - evidently although that instrument has an extended LF response, it doesn't really go far enough down for the G2). 

Still, it was interesting.   Next move - get that G2 onto the EV  LOL

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Irv
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April 22, 2019 - 5:26 am
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@BillyG and others.  Your Skylark may be suited to a hole in heart operation.  I have purchased several violins to act as an experimental subject, then have formed an attachment to them.  

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 22, 2019 - 9:55 am
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🙂 As a normally strung fiddle, I originally named the Skylark "Hermano del Diablo" - errr - and that was on good  days......  other names it got called really are not suitable for posting... 

Restrung as a viola, the Skylark underwent both a name and gender change (roflol) and she's now called Violetta, and I wouldn't part with her! 

(I could happily have chopped up Hermano for firewood)

Nope, there is just no hope for me.....

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 25, 2019 - 6:41 am
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@Irv and others - right - finally have the octave strings on the EV, and the result is pretty much what I had hoped for, with the G2 fundamental now making a proper appearance in the spectrum. Note that in this trace, there is equalization applied, basically a (very steep) roll-off from 2500Hz onwards (after all, that gives us a whole 25 harmonics to the fundamental which is just below 100 Hz.....  🙂 ).     Without the EQ the harmonics continued in a decreasing manner to around 15KHz - and - it sounded like a chainsaw !   Also, the filter envelope is just "flat" until the drop-off point - so a more realistic profile would have been to tailor it so the drop-off wasn't as steep, and perhaps starting at 500 Hz - but that's all "studio work" when you're aiming for a particular sound-profile....

Below - the open G2 on the EV, what it sounded like as a sample, and, for fun, an impromptu shot at Moonlight Shadow by Mike Oldfield (played on the D and A strings, but you can just hear that low G resonating in places...)31-G2-Open-on-EV-2.JPGImage Enlarger

Other than the bandpass/EQ on the audio, there is no other post processing, no echo, no reverb, that's what she sounds like with octaves....

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Irv
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April 25, 2019 - 7:39 am
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@BillyG .  As you may have surmised from my previous posts, I am fairly fearless but do not like to pay retail.  If I took a set of child type (1/6) cello strings, snapped off the balls and looped the strings on the tailpiece, do you think they would work as octave strings?  

@bocaholly is pestering me to do some acoustic analysis work on the cable tailpiece.  I have audacity on a lap top but have never used it.  Can you recommend a tutorial?

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 25, 2019 - 8:02 am
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@Irv - Audacity is pretty much a "down in the dirt" tool ( I mean that in an extremely nice way, I like tools like that, that really address the problem-space ).   As well as the basic program, there are all sorts of handy plug-ins and add-ons.   As a piece of free software, developed and released under the GNU GPL licensing terms, it's one of the best, and best-supported out there.

Unlike specific "music editors" with their (sometimes) easy to use GUI - Audacity pulls no punches - you just gotta get used to it - BUT - there is a HUGE amount of reference material on-line - and you won't go far wrong using this as you launch-point - https://www.audacityteam.org/h.....mentation/

Another (related and to some extent duplicate) source is the specific wiki - (not Wikipedia) https://wiki.audacityteam.org/....._Home_Page

My own use is relatively specific (signal analyses using FFT), and although I've used it for years, I probably am aware of only a fraction of its capabilities.   If you have any specific questions, don't hesitate - but I'm sure you'll figure it out 🙂

As regards the 1/6 cello strings - I suspect they would work (although - obviously - the instrument would be strung/tuned from a 5th down to the normal octaves).   When I say they would "work" they would work as poorly as they did on my acoustic (in fact probably worse on the low C with an even lower body response to the fundamental and 2nd harmonics on the low string).   Put them on an EV with a pizeo pickup under the bridge - I guess they would rock !  No idea about the linear mass of such strings, and what their bow-response would be - but I can't see it being far away from the violin octaves...

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Irv
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April 25, 2019 - 8:46 am
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@BillyG .  My use will be signal analysis as well.  At least to start.

Regarding the cable tailpiece.  I think that it will benefit bow hair initiation speed and increase harmonic propensity, but you might have difficulty tuning if you do not have some type of planetary gear pegs.  A potential work around (at least on your uppermost treble string) would be to use some type of fine tuner such as pictured below.  But the mass of the fine tuner would hobble the performance of that string.  

Regarding the octave string.  My purpose is to experiment with it on a hole in heart viola to extend the chain one instrument lower.FE1BCFF6-D4AC-4B9E-8DF7-6FEE5D1CD909.jpegImage Enlarger

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 25, 2019 - 10:27 am
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Aye, good point @Irv  - I had considered planetary pegs (probably just because other folks were using them, and being inquisitive, had it half-in-mind to try them.  I have no issues with normal pegs - so - I ended up saving the cash and spending it on something else - errrr - like Octave strings??? LOL)

So - I had never seen such a thing (the string mounted fine tuner - but of course, it makes sense for certain situations.... although, as you say, in this scenario it would surely unbalance things, particularly on the string it was fitted on)   

Ahhh, octaves/short cellos on a modified HITH viola - yeah - that could well be interesting.

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Irv
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April 25, 2019 - 12:19 pm
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@BillyG .  Not exactly.  Sending you a pm to explain.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 25, 2019 - 1:41 pm
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thumbs-up

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Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Fiddlerman
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April 28, 2019 - 8:13 am
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Funny enough, Gibbles strung a 5-string viola with an F string on Wednesday and we played around with it.

F, C, G, D, A

It's very slow in responding but it was fun to play around with.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
April 29, 2019 - 2:29 am
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Awesome @Fiddlerman!  ( LOL at "Gibbles"  !  Haha - I know who you mean !)   Yup, I'll bet it was fun !

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Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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