FORUM

Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
more vibrato
Study by the violin lab explaining how vibrato works
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (4 votes) 
Avatar
Shane "Chicken" Wang
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 6:27 pm
Member Since: October 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 284
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 

Worth a watch to understand better how vibrato works.

Avatar
Mark
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 7:41 pm
Member Since: September 30, 2014
Forum Posts: 848
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very interesting, thanks, Mark I had not seen this.

The software she's using is very interesting to use and watch your intonenation with as you play.

 

Mark

Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.

Albert Sammons

Avatar
bocaholly
Boca Raton, Florida
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 8:50 pm
Member Since: July 8, 2018
Forum Posts: 662
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very interesting video, indeed. Even if I'm not learning vibrato yet, what Beth demonstrated makes a ton of sense. Now what do I do when I do start learning vibrato and my teacher tells me to start below the pitch, vibrate up to it and no further? LOL.

Avatar
Irv
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 9:00 pm
Member Since: December 23, 2017
Forum Posts: 1215
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have a question for bocaholly.  Is Beth using the same chin rest as the one you just modified for your violin?  It sure looks similar.

Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing.  —Werner von Braun

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after.

Avatar
Shane "Chicken" Wang
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 9:35 pm
Member Since: October 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 284
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

bocaholly said
Very interesting video, indeed. Even if I'm not learning vibrato yet, what Beth demonstrated makes a ton of sense. Now what do I do when I do start learning vibrato and my teacher tells me to start below the pitch, vibrate up to it and no further? LOL.  

If the video is correct, she'll never hear the difference.

Avatar
bocaholly
Boca Raton, Florida
Members

Regulars
November 24, 2018 - 10:26 pm
Member Since: July 8, 2018
Forum Posts: 662
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Shane "Chicken" Wang Correct... assuming I can keep my mouth shut cow-fingerscrossed

@Irv Good catch. I think you're right. She might have the Wave 2 which has a little less of a ridge on top than mine but the general shape is about right and it sure looks like it has that African padauk wood color to it.

Avatar
mookje
The Netherlands
Members

Regulars
November 29, 2018 - 9:50 am
Member Since: July 29, 2018
Forum Posts: 260
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Shane "Chicken" Wang, interesting video, thanks for sharing!

 Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass. It’s about dancing in the rain!!

Avatar
Shane "Chicken" Wang
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 29, 2018 - 12:40 pm
Member Since: October 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 284
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 

I found this video this morning on vibrato and the way she explains about the knocking, something clicked for me. I understand that in the video she covers weeks, months, and years of practice.

Someone said that learning left and right hand was like driving a stick shift. I have trained truck drivers, welders, pipe fitters, forklift drivers and maintenance men. Some analogies hit home with me and remind me that teachers and people are different, not necessarily good or bad, but different. Sometimes it just takes a measure of time for our brains to process information and allow that "click" to happen.

We learn from repetition, repetition of action, and repetition of correct information. Since we are all different, We all learn in different ways, at different speeds, in different modes, with different outcomes, imprinted with our own personal interpretation of all that we have taken in. We call that style.

Our style, is our signature, another reflection of who we are, when we start to become satisfied or happy with what we are doing. Be it the way we play an instrument, shift gears in a big truck, (which has a tempo and a beat count, matches The Addams Family theme song), or the flatness and swirl in a fillet weld, our best results come when we have faith in ourselves, confidence in our abilities, and a relaxing peace of mind. The difference between drone and artist.

The old joke, How do you get to Carnegie Hall? PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. I love practice, the achievements, the mistakes, the beauty, and the ugliness. I am not focused on the end of the trip, I am focused on the journey.

Enjoy the trip you are own, and do it with style.

Mark Shane 

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
December 11, 2018 - 4:35 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 797
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I too have seen the prescription "play from below the note up to the note", but in reality you are always going to be using your ears.

For comparison, at university in 1980 I was lucky enough to play second oboe in a pro-am production of Prokofiev's Duenna under Howard Williams of the ENO. The first oboist was a mature philosophy undergraduate who already had a performer's diploma from the Royal College of Music, and he became my oboe teacher. I spent a whole 6 months practising diaphragm vibrato every single day! I am going to assume, initially, that it will take me 6 months next year to learn perfect violin vibrato (of course, I've started already, lol!).

Andrew

Avatar
wtw
Regular advisor
Members

Regulars
December 11, 2018 - 2:33 pm
Member Since: November 10, 2018
Forum Posts: 115
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I saw first the prescription "play from below to above the note", which did make sense to me (then saw it contradicted basically everywhere else).

But @Gordon Shumway I agree that it doesn't matter much in the end, as it's mostly the ear and not the eyes that will control the playing. Even when practicing, it's too fast to see what's happening, let alone think about the details. As long as the intonation sounds correct, it's fine...

Avatar
Shane "Chicken" Wang
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
December 11, 2018 - 5:21 pm
Member Since: October 25, 2018
Forum Posts: 284
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Andrew Shumway said
I too have seen the prescription "play from below the note up to the note", but in reality you are always going to be using your ears.

For comparison, at university in 1980 I was lucky enough to play second oboe in a pro-am production of Prokofiev's Duenna under Howard Williams of the ENO. The first oboist was a mature philosophy undergraduate who already had a performer's diploma from the Royal College of Music, and he became my oboe teacher. I spent a whole 6 months practising diaphragm vibrato every single day! I am going to assume, initially, that it will take me 6 months next year to learn perfect violin vibrato (of course, I've started already, lol!).  

Hmmmm. You know on saxophone you learn vibrato through embouchure, took 20 minutes. lol. I know what you mean though, I can play the brass section.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
December 11, 2018 - 6:15 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14787
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

The theory is that the human ear registers the highest tone.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
December 11, 2018 - 8:03 pm
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 797
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Shane "Chicken" Wang said

...on saxophone you learn vibrato through embouchure, took 20 minutes. lol....

Coincidentally I was listening to some really good sleazy 50s tenor sax rock n roll the other day and thinking, yeah, that's jaw vibrato, but it's exactly right for the music, and diaphragm vibrato would be very wrong.

Andrew

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
November 21, 2019 - 5:41 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 797
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

And a spammer brings me back to this thread! (Last time I reported some spam, the entire thread disappeared for some reason.)

Anyway, the main problem I notice on the violin is that, unlike diaphragm vibrato, my violin vibrato is usually too fast. So my idea is to listen to opera singers and try to vibrato more like them.

Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for beginners to try to distinguish finger, wrist, arm vibrato, as I wonder if it will cause accidental tension. Also there may be a translation problem - in Russian there's no specific word for hand, there's the word RUKA which means the same as (and is related to) the ancient Greek CHEIR, which means hand and forearm. Teachings which originated in the Russian language, then, may get distorted in translation.

I'm surmising that if you regard the whole arm as an elastic system and keep it loose to begin with, then one day you can slightly firm-up the finger, wrist or elbow, redistributing the elasticity to make it a more specific action.

Andrew

Avatar
cid
November 21, 2019 - 6:56 am
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 1462
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

@Gordon Shumway Spammer deleted, just for you. 😁 👍

They call me, “Mellow Cello” 

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 21, 2019 - 3:07 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14787
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Gordon Shumway said
Anyway, the main problem I notice on the violin is that, unlike diaphragm vibrato, my violin vibrato is usually too fast. So my idea is to listen to opera singers and try to vibrato more like them.

That is a great idea. I like it. It's rare that people feel the that their vibrato is too fast, Arm vibrato is better for slower wider vibrato.

Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for beginners to try to distinguish finger, wrist, arm vibrato, as I wonder if it will cause accidental tension. Also there may be a translation problem - in Russian there's no specific word for hand, there's the word RUKA which means the same as (and is related to) the ancient Greek CHEIR, which means hand and forearm. Teachings which originated in the Russian language, then, may get distorted in translation.

Can't see how it would be bad for beginners but then again, I can't remember when I was a beginner.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
cid
November 21, 2019 - 6:30 pm
Member Since: December 26, 2018
Forum Posts: 1462
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Fiddlerman Were you born with a violin and bow!? Wow, your poor mom when she delivered you! And they thought it was you crying after being born. Little did they know it was the E string. yaaaa_gif

They call me, “Mellow Cello” 

Avatar
Gordon Shumway
London, England
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
November 22, 2019 - 2:09 am
Member Since: August 1, 2016
Forum Posts: 797
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Fiddlerman said

Gordon Shumway said

Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for beginners to try to distinguish finger, wrist, arm vibrato, as I wonder if it will cause accidental tension. 

Can't see how it would be bad for beginners but then again, I can't remember when I was a beginner.  

Maybe I just haven't watched enough videos, but I fear that "arm vibrato" can be interpreted as having a very rigid wrist and vibrating from the elbow. Also, my mother had to have both carpal tunnels operated on, so I fear that a wrist vibrato where the wrist is the only thing that moves might be harmful if used in excess. So I try to distribute the tensions and movements over the whole arm from fingertip to elbow so that nothing has too much work to do and nothing is unduly tense. After that it's about slight redistributions of the effort.

Andrew

Avatar
AndrewH
Sacramento, California
Members

Regulars
November 22, 2019 - 3:18 am
Member Since: November 5, 2017
Forum Posts: 567
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Gordon Shumway said

Fiddlerman said

Gordon Shumway said

Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for beginners to try to distinguish finger, wrist, arm vibrato, as I wonder if it will cause accidental tension. 

Can't see how it would be bad for beginners but then again, I can't remember when I was a beginner.  

Maybe I just haven't watched enough videos, but I fear that "arm vibrato" can be interpreted as having a very rigid wrist and vibrating from the elbow. Also, my mother had to have both carpal tunnels operated on, so I fear that a wrist vibrato where the wrist is the only thing that moves might be harmful if used in excess. So I try to distribute the tensions and movements over the whole arm from fingertip to elbow so that nothing has too much work to do and nothing is unduly tense. After that it's about slight redistributions of the effort.

  

The main reason they're taught separately is that people self-teaching vibrato often develop the kind of motion where the wrist and arm cancel each other out; the wrist moves back and forth but the finger stays almost stationary.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 22, 2019 - 9:22 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14787
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Gordon Shumway said

Fiddlerman said

Gordon Shumway said Also, I'm not sure if it is a good thing for beginners to try to distinguish finger, wrist, arm vibrato, as I wonder if it will cause accidental tension. 

Can't see how it would be bad for beginners but then again, I can't remember when I was a beginner.  

Maybe I just haven't watched enough videos, but I fear that "arm vibrato" can be interpreted as having a very rigid wrist and vibrating from the elbow. Also, my mother had to have both carpal tunnels operated on, so I fear that a wrist vibrato where the wrist is the only thing that moves might be harmful if used in excess. So I try to distribute the tensions and movements over the whole arm from fingertip to elbow so that nothing has too much work to do and nothing is unduly tense. After that it's about slight redistributions of the effort.

So, when I say arm vibrato, I am referring to arm vibrato without moving the wrist.
However, once a person learns individual vibrato types, they can and should mix to what is appropriate for the style you are playing.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 424
Currently Online: AndrewH, cid
26
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming HeadCheese, Mad_Wed, Andrew, Prudence, Lenicus, ButteryStuffs, kit, makinnoise, wisco kid, Nathalie, marta, AmandaKulp, klezmerkat
Top Posters:
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2678
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Kevin M.: 1971
damfino: 1944
cdennyb: 1814
TerryT: 1726
Ferret: 1575
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 27056
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 55
Topics: 8162
Posts: 101497
Newest Members:
Peter C, janetcolletti, caseclosed, Sheri, Hemen1998, OCB
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 14787, KindaScratchy: 1741, coolpinkone: 4174, BillyG: 3081, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, cid: 1462