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Bottom Seam opening
This doesn't seem good. Pun not intended!
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Batto
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March 4, 2019 - 12:48 pm
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Gordon Shumway said

Batto said
bookmarked is the process of making a two piece back. You take the slab of wood cut it in half and then fold It out. You should get a symmetrical piece. 

Yes, that's what they do with the walnut veneer in Rolls Royces to make the dashboard symmetrical, lol! On a fiddle, I'm not sure why you'd go to that trouble with something that isn't nicely flamed maple.  

I have a theory that it might be an American made violin, because it doesn't fit the  Only Bosnian spruce taken from the mountains and maple from dense European forests archetype. In fact I suspect a southern origin, which is why I even question if the bottom is maple, because there are other woods one can use, and in fact people used what they had. Also even a lot of old English instruments don't have the flamed maple I've seen. But everything German or French must have the flame for it mean anything. However that being said I have a trade fiddle beside me with the flames and false corner blocks.

I haven't found much information on American made violins especially during the civil war era or prior.

Also lets face it with Americans and violins we don't feel the need to stick with what Stradivarius fell from the heavens on a cloud of purity and knowledge and set in stone for all violin making ever.  In fact in many blind ear tests the fact its a million dollar strad has been outperformed by many other violins, including new experimental ones. There was one Swedish made violin where the wood was treated with a moss that sounded rich and vibrant that people thought it was the strad...

Somebody took the time to put this together nicely, and I suspect this violin was made by somebody who knew what they were doing but didn't have access to the same woods you find in German, France, and Italy.

 

But anyways theres a reason why you'd want it perfectly mirrored and its for sound. The wood would be equal in its resonance. you're getting symmetry in the vibrations if the wood is mirrored symmetrically. So the same flaws or defects on one side are identical (in theory) on the other side. meaning once the vibrations occur and travel through the bottom its  going to behave the same on both sides of the plate.

Or thats what I think I heard from four different luthier's blogs on the subject matter.

 

But what do I know. I'm a fool with a handlebar mustache!

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Gordon Shumway
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Batto said
theres a reason why you'd want it perfectly mirrored and its for sound. The wood would be equal in its resonance. you're getting symmetry in the vibrations

Good point. I like it.

Andrew

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steveduf
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We have a few violins with the mechanical tuners, including this lions head and a post war Juzek.  I hate the damage that is done to the pegbox.  

 

on another note: I keep my hide glue in a small Mason jar.  I have on occasion placed it in a microwave for five seconds, stirred it and give it a few more seconds at a time.  I only do this if I am gluing a small area.  ( how many people cringed on this one?) lol

5B5E520C-630B-44FA-BC9C-B766DB785774.jpegImage Enlarger

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Batto
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March 4, 2019 - 4:14 pm
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steveduf said
We have a few violins with the mechanical tuners, including this lions head and a post war Juzek.  I hate the damage that is done to the pegbox.  

 

on another note: I keep my hide glue in a small Mason jar.  I have on occasion placed it in a microwave for five seconds, stirred it and give it a few more seconds at a time.  I only do this if I am gluing a small area.  ( how many people cringed on this one?) lol

5B5E520C-630B-44FA-BC9C-B766DB785774.jpegImage Enlarger  

If you ever decide to "make those correct" let me know. I'd be interested in those old antique tuners.

Frankly if anybody has any in a junk drawer let me know. I have a few projects I'd like to have a set for.

I bought some hide glue and some brushes. So its coming soon. It was cheaper to buy a pound then a small amount.. and the pound came in a can. Makes sense to me...

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Fiddlerman
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March 4, 2019 - 4:33 pm
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I've tested violins like this, and the downfall is the weight of the tuners. Other than that the scroll is coolness.... 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Batto
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March 4, 2019 - 7:42 pm
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Fiddlerman said
I've tested violins like this, and the downfall is the weight of the tuners. Other than that the scroll is coolness.... 🙂  

thats the general consensus which makes me wonder if different ones weigh different amounts. I know they will weigh more than wooden pegs, but I haven't noticed much weight difference on mine. Granted I have the comparison piece of a cheap Chinese fiddle versus this one. So that might not be the best example as some cheap instruments can be heavy.

I do have a few projects where I'd love to get some old ones though. I want to make a stroh violin, as well as a steampunk electric one. I have the designs for the stroh already. I would just love those old vintage tuners on it for that extra *nudge* of old world.

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steveduf
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These aren’t as antiquey looking but available938C5DAF-5A99-4822-846D-0D1BBF212CA3.jpegImage Enlarger

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steveduf
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You say you like brass?F4596C39-C80A-4105-893A-C7EFFCAAD0F6.pngImage Enlarger

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Irv
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I’m holding out for titanium.

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

It is unpleasant to be thought so uncleverly unclean and capable of poisoning a whole city.—Sir Walter Scott

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Batto
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March 4, 2019 - 9:31 pm
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Irv said
I’m holding out for titanium.  

I'm hoping to snag an old set because from what I've seen the Chinese modern ones have a tendency to have the gears explode on them. 

Granted the old ones have a chance to be worn out, but its a risk. I'd rather deal with old world wear. A lot of these were fitted onto German trade violins, so chances of stumbling across a "junk pile" one are quite high, in theory.

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Batto
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Well this is a bit worrying. I removed the chinrest and inspected the seam. The bottom one isn't the only one that opened up.  Theres another one that mirrors it on the top and when I shined a light through the end pin hole I could more seams revealed. In fact when shining the light through the hole in the dark I could see how much of a seam there is. 

So what is the general procedure if you notice numerous seams all throughout both plates?

in fact it looks like these are old repairs that are opening up

So what is my best course of action here?

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steveduf
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https://fiddlerman.com/forum/f.....trad-copy/

This one was falling apart so I disassembled it completely,  a lot of tedious work but possible.  I removed most of the old glue mechanically, chipping away and carefully and then touching up the finish 

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Batto
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steveduf said
https://fiddlerman.com/forum/f.....trad-copy/

This one was falling apart so I disassembled it completely,  a lot of tedious work but possible.  I removed most of the old glue mechanically, chipping away and carefully and then touching up the finish   

Amazing. My biggest fear is losing shape of the ribs and such. Would it be wise to just simply remove one side. Clean the seams then glue then tackle the otherside?

That seems like to me to be the safest way to do this with minimal risk 

Really I have no problems tearing into things. its just I would rather not revert my violin into a pile of parts.

Granted I've replaced an engine on a car with no manual before so I'm not really afraid of the technical aspect just more of the damage that could theoretically occur

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Gordon Shumway
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Probably my biggest regret in life, after not having a photographic memory, is that I have no woodworking skills.

I was once ready to enroll in a guitar-making class, but then they trebled the fees, so I didn't bother. I don't regret it in the strictest guitaristic sense, but if it had taught me more general luthiery, that would have been good.

I could look for a violin-making class, but I think the fees would be better spent on a violin.

It sounds like your fiddle needs major work, @Batto .

I recall from a book I read that the back uses stronger glue than the front - this is because the back is less sensitive and can use the extra stability, whereas the front may need a few removals and readjustments and breathing/vibrating room?

I wonder what glue choices they had 300 years ago.

Obviously you should pay more attention to @Irv and to @steveduf than to me, and you probably already know more than I do anyway, but my guess would be to take off the back first and replace it with strong glue, perhaps even Titebond. Then after that's done, take off the front and do a more delicate job.

Andrew

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steveduf
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I think the one side at a time is a good idea.  If the glue is failing there I would also be worried about the glue at the neck area, nut, saddle, etc..  If you reset the neck area you need to pay attention to the dimensions from fingerboard to the body.  You are undertaking a big project, i personally get a kick out of these resurrections.  Good luck

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Gordon Shumway
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And if you use the right glues (do they have to be organic?), and it doesn't work and you have to take it to a luthier, it will not be something they can't fix.

Whereas I have an all-solid-wood Spanish guitar (dated May 1975) where someone seems to have glued the bridge back on with opaque white epoxy, and I wonder if a luthier will be able to do anything to it. Luckily I only paid $80 on EBay for it, lol!

Andrew

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Irv
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@Gordon Stumway and others.  A word of caution.  There is a projection on the back plate that is glued to the base of the neck heel.  If that connection is removed, the neck is free to rotate.  From the appearance of the bridge, the violin is already has a minimum of projection as it is.

A more cautious approach, as suggested by steveduf above, is to glue up the two halves of the perimeter separately, clamping the unsecured side as well for alignment.

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

It is unpleasant to be thought so uncleverly unclean and capable of poisoning a whole city.—Sir Walter Scott

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Gordon Shumway
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I should butt out, shouldn't I!

Andrew

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Irv
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@@Gordon Stumway.  Not in the least.  Now you know (as will the anonymous lurkers).

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.         —Frank Zappa

It is unpleasant to be thought so uncleverly unclean and capable of poisoning a whole city.—Sir Walter Scott

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Batto
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March 5, 2019 - 9:15 am
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Gordon Shumway said
And if you use the right glues (do they have to be organic?), and it doesn't work and you have to take it to a luthier, it will not be something they can't fix.

Whereas I have an all-solid-wood Spanish guitar (dated May 1975) where someone seems to have glued the bridge back on with opaque white epoxy, and I wonder if a luthier will be able to do anything to it. Luckily I only paid $80 on EBay for it, lol!  

steveduf said
I think the one side at a time is a good idea.  If the glue is failing there I would also be worried about the glue at the neck area, nut, saddle, etc..  If you reset the neck area you need to pay attention to the dimensions from fingerboard to the body.  You are undertaking a big project, i personally get a kick out of these resurrections.  Good luck  

The hide glue I got coming is of decent strength. The violin looks like its fingerboard and nut and saddle were done correctly as those aren't loose and are in fact clean. So I suspect the repairs were done after the fitment of these parts. In fact the areas that are popping look sloppy. 

Before things get too out of hand I think I will record measurements of everything on the violin to make sure I can get these tailor fit. I am not afraid of working on things.. in fact my friends are amazed at what I can do. 

I feel if I was alive during the Victoria era I would have been an inventor or something, either that or thrown into an asylum. 

The only part of this violin which worries is me the damaged rib.

HOWEVER that being said I do have the general trade fiddle which I have shown a few times that is of lesser quality than mine. Its only issues is the back plate has a crack in it. (As well as a lack of fittings in general nut, fingerboard, saddle)

image01.jpgImage Enlarger

@steveduf  How do you go about clamping a plate that is separating? I've seen people mention absurdly expensive tools and I've also found a British site that tells you how to make some clamps.

http://www.fiolinmaker.no/en/t.....lemmer.php

across_arching_clamp_4.jpgImage Enlarger

I think I might practice on the trade violin as it has no true sentimental value to me, and if things go screwy I will not *lose* anything per se. Frankly I bought that violin for its coffin case.. The mosaic fiddle was just a bonus. I mean how many of those old coffin cases do you find the original keys for them?

I'm thinking of the best plan of attack here for this, as well seeking advice from those who are technically minded and have some experience.

I have no illusions about the difficulty of this task, but I have infinite patience for when it comes to mechanical things... people not so much, but anything mechanical, it's simpler.

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