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Electro acoustic
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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 7:43 am
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David Burns said:

I have seen violins with the amplifier jack attached to the body with a device like the one that holds the chin rest. No extra holes in the body. Of course the wires run from the pick up to the output jack on top of the violin.

Okay.

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Fiddlerman
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September 16, 2011 - 8:17 am
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About dampening the violin for practicing purposes. Have you ever tried one of the big heavy practice mutes?

I use one of these when in hotels or while I'm warming up to play on stage and there is a show going on, etc. They work great.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 10:18 am
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About dampening the violin for practicing purposes. Have you ever tried one of the big heavy practice mutes?

I use one of these when in hotels or while I'm warming up to play on stage and there is a show going on, etc. They work great.

 

Okay, thanks for the information, but can't we start separate threads for discussing pracice mutes, piezo pickups and chinrest jacks?

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this and get to know how much a ribs-mounted jack would actually affect the tone. It may be true that it diminishes the output volume considerably, but I'm not ready to believe that yet. The world of fiddles is more ruled by sentimentality and superstition than by science and actual experiments.

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Oliver
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September 16, 2011 - 10:50 am
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I missed why you passed up carpenter jacks ?

(PS  Let's not begin to confuse the issues with facts  dazed

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Svento
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Oliver said:

I missed why you passed up carpenter jacks ?

I didn't, but that's not what this particular discussion is about. IF a jack in the ribs would ruin the sound, I won't take up a hole but look for some other solution, but I do want an electric instrument with full acoustic volume, so if it's possible, I'll mount the jack permanently in the ribs.

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Oliver
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September 16, 2011 - 12:47 pm
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You probably know that it is unlikely that someone will commit your instrument to a radical modification.  How many have done that with their own instrument? 

It so happens I made a 1/2" hole in the rib with a 15 1/2" viola about the height of the bridge and there was not the least detectable difference.

Such a modification clearly breaches the body sound profile ( but so do chin and shoulder rests ) so it's a cxxp game at best.

coffee2

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 1:31 pm
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Interesting. Actually it's not the hole that concerns me but the jack. The hole will be covered but there will be a small metal plate screwed to the ribs and then the jack itself.

My guess is that two factors can change the sound. On one hand the alien elements on the ribs, on the other the jack intruding into the resonance chamber. Yet, theorethically I can't believe either factor would actually change the sound noticeably to a normal human ear. The ribs are very rigid and not supposed to vibrate. The moving parts are the string, the bridge and the soundboard, while the bottom and the ribs serves the purpose of containing the air that amplifies the sound of the top. The output jack will take some of the resonance space, but percentually so little that I hardly believe that the tone will get weaker.

I've posted this question on some guitar forums (not first revieling that it's a fiddle I'm talking about). They all say that operations in the bridge won't affect the tone the least. Then I ask the next question, if there theorethically someone believes that it would be different with a much smaller body and they all say there would be no difference.

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Oliver
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September 16, 2011 - 2:00 pm
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To rob the violin of resonance space I would guess your contraption would have to be pretty big.  I've read reports of people stuffing rags into a violin to mellow the tone but I'm sure that was a lot more intrusive than phone jack hardware. 

I would agree with your guitar people.  

But I was also thinking that such a modification might affect resale if you ever had that in mind.

coffee2

 

PS  Just maybe there is a missed communication here.  A carpenter jack is not a jack.  Are you familiar with that ?

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 2:31 pm
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Oliver said:

To rob the violin of resonance space I would guess your contraption would have to be pretty big.  I've read reports of people stuffing rags into a violin to mellow the tone but I'm sure that was a lot more intrusive than phone jack hardware. 

I would agree with your guitar people.  

But I was also thinking that such a modification might affect resale if you ever had that in mind.

coffee2

 

PS  Just maybe there is a missed communication here.  A carpenter jack is not a jack.  Are you familiar with that ?

I don't believe I'll ever sell this one. It's the only one in the world of its kind and the only acoustic fiddle that matches my requirements. Besides it's not finished yet, I got a body with a neck and a nut and it still needs some work before it's ready to be played. I've made a simplified scroll myself and now a carpenter is making the overhang on the top and the bottom, beause there were none from the start. Next thing will be to have the soundpost set and then varnish it. So tele jack or not, this will be the original look and setup of the instrument. I was involved in designing it a few years ago and now got it as a gift. I didn't pay for the instrument, only to have it fixed and set up.

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Oliver
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September 16, 2011 - 2:42 pm
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What is special about the design compared to the usual violin ?

Are we talking acoustic with pick-up ?

coffee2

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Fiddlerman
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September 16, 2011 - 2:45 pm
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Svento said:

What I meant about rubber foam body was that for practicing purpose, it's usually better the more silent the instrument is. A solid wodd body would be sufficient but an acoustic – even a low-output acoustic – is a bit to much. When I had my electric built, I got more practice than ever before, but I still found it a bit too loud.

The practice mute was in reference to your own remark on this particular thread. Unfortunately, We are kind of sloppy here when it comes to staying on the topic.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Fiddlerman
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September 16, 2011 - 2:51 pm
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I really don't think that you will loose much volume by putting a jack on the side in the ribs. The jack is not all that big either is it? Plate and all, just like you said, the ribs aren't designed to vibrate. The strings, bridge, top, sound-post and bottom are what need to be free for vibration. IMHFO, go for it.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 2:52 pm
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Fiddlerman said:

Svento said:

What I meant about rubber foam body was that for practicing purpose, it's usually better the more silent the instrument is. A solid wodd body would be sufficient but an acoustic – even a low-output acoustic – is a bit to much. When I had my electric built, I got more practice than ever before, but I still found it a bit too loud.

The practice mute was in reference to your own remark on this particular thread. Unfortunately, We are kind of sloppy here when it comes to staying on the topic.

That's not a specific trait for this forum but a very very grave human disease.

About muting: No practice mute has been made that would fit on the bridge of my electric...

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 5:33 pm
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Oliver said:

What is special about the design compared to the usual violin ?

Are we talking acoustic with pick-up ?

coffee2

Acoustic with pickup, yes. It's slightly larger than standard, broad like a viola and high ribs on the bass side. It also has a lefthand cuttaway for better access to the upper end of the fingerboard. Besides it's made from walnut with a maple top.

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myguitarnow
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September 16, 2011 - 6:02 pm
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Have any pictures Svento? Sounds like an interesting violin that you are building?

Just a little comment about pickups here...I'm no expert on violins at all but I'm pretty close when it comes to pickups with guitars and professional recording.

I agree with you piezo means, "hell no" with acoustic guitars but with my acoustic/electric violin with a Barcus Barry piezo connected to the bridge and a 1/4 inch jack in the rib sounds great and really rocks through amps and PAs keeping a pure violin sound. Sounds like your building a little beast..Mount a humbucker in front of the bridge ;-)  jimi-hendrix

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 6:05 pm
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Oliver
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September 16, 2011 - 6:17 pm
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WOW!  I'm impressed.  That's a whole lot of interesting and different fiddles !!

Wished I lived closer smile

coffee2

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myguitarnow
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September 16, 2011 - 6:26 pm
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Mmm… The website shows up a little jarbled. Bottom of the page shows a New Mexico number and email. Is that you? Looked at the wild violin styles. They're pretty thick. Could you make me a Gibson SG shaped violin with a humbucker pickup in front of the bridge? My favorite guitar ever built (as I close my eyes and say sorry Les. P.) ?

ah, you changed the page link. That's a pretty cool violin.Would like to hear what something like that would sound like. Very deep I guess?

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 6:48 pm
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myguitarnow said:

Mmm… The website shows up a little jarbled. Bottom of the page shows a New Mexico number and email. Is that you? Looked at the wild violin styles. They're pretty thick. Could you make me a Gibson SG shaped violin with a humbucker pickup in front of the bridge? My favorite guitar ever built (as I close my eyes and say sorry Les. P.) ?

ah, you changed the page link. That's a pretty cool violin.Would like to here what something like that would sound like. Very deep I guess?

I can design anything but I have no skills in wood working. Designing an SG style fiddle wouldn't be a problem at all if you can find someone to make the actual work. Body and neck, no big deal - the challenge is making a bridge construction to work with it. But I've solved that problem too... You don't have to make any apologies to Les Paul about the SG, as far as I know he didn't design the Gibson Les Paul either...

About the pu once again: If it's a fiddle, the proper position isn't by the bridge but closer to the fingerboard. This is irritating, for even if the sound is very full, warm and round there, it isn't very sharp and pronounced. Singlecoil is better than humbucker for fiddle. Then there's the electrodynamic principle that Michael Edinger uses for his Stringamp. This idea opens up for a number of solutions and has been developed by a guy I know. His idea includes a special kind of bridge and some magnets near it.

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David Burns
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September 16, 2011 - 7:05 pm
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A flux capacitor, powered by 1.21 gigawatts!

Seriously, getting back to mounting a pick up in your violin.

 

If it were me, I would play the hell out of this thing for a few months, then mount a non-intrusive pick up and see if I could live with it. As a last resort, I would drill a hole in a one of a kind irreplaceable violin. I know you said the piezo thing is out, and the guitar type pick up is the way to go. What would a violin like that cost to have made? I know you said it was a gift, I am just curious.

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