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"Frets" for violins
beginner question
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (1 votes) 
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tbman
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December 24, 2020 - 12:48 pm
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I haven't received my starter violin as yet (its being prepared by the seller) so I'm sort of just brainstorming a bit. As a guitar player I'm used to having frets. I've seen finger board overlays that simulate frets, but not sure if it will be necessary. Has anyone used these?

I'm thinking that after a while I would at least be able to play a few "first position" notes and get an idea of the intonation going up the neck on my own.  Having a guitar right next to me to help guide me note-wise will probably be a big help. 

Thanks in advance and happy holidays!

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Mouse
December 24, 2020 - 1:17 pm
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@tbman 

Well, I did a little guitar and the positioning is not the same. 

The tapes are pretty much up to individual preference. Some people love them, especially to at least learn where fingers go in general, a starting point. Others are dead set against them, and can be quite vocal, and at times a little demeaning to those of us who use them. That is how I feel when reading some comments, so just remember it is up to you.You will hear both sides in the comments. Just remember, it is up to you. You are the one who can decide if they would help, at least to get the lay of the land, so to speak. 

Don't let one side sway you for or against. If you have issues finding the first finger placement just to get started and can figure out the rest, just place the first finger first position placement tape on. If you need 4 tapes, place four tapes on. You can take them off and put them back on as needed.

Also, you will have people stating that if the strings are not tuned right, the tapes will be off. True, but at least you have a starting point. I could not learn placement by constantly sliding my finger around. There was too much of it and that did not create any memory for my fingers. My memory was, put my finger there and move it around. 

So, tapes are your decision. I have put them on, taken them off, put them back on. I have one violin with just the first finger first position tape. I can never remember how far down the neck the first position is. This morning, it was beginning to click. Maybe it will stick this time. I second guess myself. It just seems farther down the neck than I think it should be.

But, in my opinion, your guitar is not really going to,guide,you. It might actually hinder. But, I am not you, it might help,you. It did not help me at all.

I hope this helps. Read what people say, and take what applies to you and your way of learning. There is no right or wrong with this question. I admire those who don't use them, because I still need them, but I do not feel bad about using them. I simply need them to learn correct placement.

Does this make sense?

Cello and Viola Time! 

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GregW
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December 24, 2020 - 2:20 pm
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@tbman some people like the tapes some dont..either way you choose wont be "wrong" .  I feel playing other instruments helps.  not that you can transfer fingerings or anything but youre used to hearing scales and music.  

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stringy
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December 24, 2020 - 3:05 pm
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To be brutally honest, I dont like tapes, never used them, I think if you use them to long they become a crutch, sooner you start trying to train our ears the better. I have played guitar and other instruments for nearly forty years,  guitar helps because you dont have to learn how to move your fingers which is a big help, bt violin is a completely different instrument there are no real short cuts, you have frames for the hand on violin, basically like the boxes for blues scales, but you have to be able to hear the notes, the way you do this is first of all hearing the flageolets which are the ringing notes gdae, once you can hear these they become quite apparent, you use these to navigate round the fingerboard. If you use tapes and our instrument goes out of tune when playing you will struggle to compensate. some violinists actually de tune some strings and then practice scales so good are their ears. The violin is an aural not visual instrument, I myself, along with all other violinists struggle with intonation and practice it daily, its not easy, especially since what you hear under your ear isnt what you hear if you record it, thats always a shock. I personally like the struggle, its a real challenge and is very satisfying, especially when someone can finally tell what the tune you are playing actually 😁is alll that said, Its up to you, but if you do use them Iwouldnt leave them on for to long just a couple  of months.

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Mouse
December 24, 2020 - 3:06 pm
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Oh, yes, good point, GregW. I was just thinking the fingering because he said something about keeping it beside him as a guide, but he will have a better ear for judging accuracy and know about music, in general. Excellent point.

Cello and Viola Time! 

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stringy
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December 24, 2020 - 3:16 pm
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Forgot to mention, the books I used to get me started and which I think are excellent and cheap are the Samuel Applebaum stringuilder series, they are on Amazon for afew quid each, make sure you get the violin though and not viola like I did 🤣

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tbman
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December 24, 2020 - 3:58 pm
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stringy said
To be brutally honest, I dont like tapes, never used them, I think if you use them to long they become a crutch, sooner you start trying to train our ears the better. I have played guitar and other instruments for nearly forty years,  guitar helps because you dont have to learn how to move your fingers which is a big help, bt violin is a completely different instrument there are no real short cuts, you have frames for the hand on violin, basically like the boxes for blues scales, but you have to be able to hear the notes, the way you do this is first of all hearing the flageolets which are the ringing notes gdae, once you can hear these they become quite apparent, you use these to navigate round the fingerboard. If you use tapes and our instrument goes out of tune when playing you will struggle to compensate. some violinists actually de tune some strings and then practice scales so good are their ears. The violin is an aural not visual instrument, I myself, along with all other violinists struggle with intonation and practice it daily, its not easy, especially since what you hear under your ear isnt what you hear if you record it, thats always a shock. I personally like the struggle, its a real challenge and is very satisfying, especially when someone can finally tell what the tune you are playing actually 😁is alll that said, Its up to you, but if you do use them Iwouldnt leave them on for to long just a couple  of months.

  

 

Thanks!

Ok, so here's another beginner question (or a couple). 

Why would someone continue to play if their instrument is out of tune and (2) why aren't violin tuners made like a guitar's tuners - geared tuners that stay where they are put? Instead of fighting the instrument for intonation, make an instrument that stays in tune or am I missing something?

Also, if a violin goes out of tune and the player wants to stay traditional and not get geared tuners, can't a capo of some sort be made to hold the strings tight at the nut? Yes, this would shift the notes down, but not by much and the instrument should stay in tune. 

Anyway, just crazy questions that popped up in my head.

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GregW
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December 24, 2020 - 4:15 pm
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youll get to a point where youre used to the tuning pegs.  the synthetic strings seem to change more than steel strings..but as long as the room temp and humidity stays fairly constant after things settle with new strings.. you shouldnt have big tuning differences.  with an electric violin i think youll have steel strings but since i dont have one im not 100% on that.  a capo type device would ruin the advantage a fretless instrument has I think.  I know where youre coming from though and have thought about that as well.  once you get your new instrument and the bow is rosined good..youl get some notes sounding quick.  maybe even hapoy birthday or your favorite tune.  itll be slow and sound scratchy but youll be rocking along with something simple fairly quick.  record yourself alot.. youll hear what you want to work on.  which will be everything.  🙂  dont get discouraged..  coming from guitar and I did this..the first mistake youll make in fingering will be squeezing the strings too hard.  it takes very little to stop a string and make a note.  its almost like your hand floats instead of pressing.  I had a death grip ( bad for guutar too) on the guitar neck and transferred that to violin.  if you can keep that in mind from the start its one thing that will help.

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stringy
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December 24, 2020 - 4:31 pm
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 violinist would continue to play when out of tune if for instance he was in an orchestra, or in  a  Irish session, you.dont have time to re tune, which on a violin is an art in itself and to tune by ear takes quite some practice and time.

as for geaared tuners opposed to pegs I would have geared tuners in an instant if i could afford them, but at around a 150 quid a set, and another hundred for a luthier to fit them its too much for me. A lot of soloists also say they dont like the added weight. capo wouldnt work on violin for several reasons one of which is the shape of the curve on a violin neck, to get a more in depth answer to that post a question on maestronet.

Once your ears start to develop its not a fight anyway, I like the challenge, the reason not many play violin is because its arguably the hardest instrument in the world. its a matter of practice, omce you start you will fall in love with it, guitar is like a childs toy in comparison, persevere once you get your instrument, trust me you wont put it down, I practice two hours every day, cant get enough of it.😱

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stringy
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December 24, 2020 - 4:34 pm
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Bythe way even if it stays perfectly in tune you will still need to hear the notes, there are different ways of playing in tune on the violin, were the intervals are not perfectly set, such as pythagorean and just, intonation.

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tbman
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December 25, 2020 - 1:11 am
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Ok, thanks everyone!

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stringy
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December 25, 2020 - 5:30 am
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No problem make sure you put it down long enough to eat your xmas dinner😀

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Mouse
December 25, 2020 - 6:53 am
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You are welcome. Have fun.

Cello and Viola Time! 

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ELCBK
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December 27, 2020 - 2:00 am
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@tbman -

Maybe this will help answer one of your queries. 

Here's fingering for 1st and 3rd positions. 

1e563bca68eacaea7ee6859c1d77667e.jpg

Next is a chart for more positions on the violin (there's a total of something like 12?).  You need to remember the closer you get to the bridge, the shorter the intervals between notes get.  Use a tuner until your ears are trained well enough. 

1.Violin-fingering.jpg

 

Here's more about 1st and 3rd Position. 

http://www.palomavaleva.com/en.....sitions/ 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c0/a4/6f/c0a46f4a2d6370d2ed9512536ce19823.jpg

 

- Emily

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tbman
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December 27, 2020 - 9:32 pm
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Emily, thank you!

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