FORUM

Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Please feel free to share. “The Little Drummer Boy Project”

A A A
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Guitar player trying violin
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
eoj02
mooresvill, in
Regular advisor
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2012 - 10:07 am
Member Since: February 26, 2012
Forum Posts: 167
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

EJ----- the size difference is interresting.  i also have only been playing 2 months.  i often find myself playing second position notes without moving my thumb from it's anchor position.  i try to place it where fiddlerman suggested.  i have to focus on keeping my palm facing me.  as a guitar player, we want to keep our fingers perpendicular to the strings with our finger nails facing up, i guess when playing violin, our fingernails are supposed to face the bridge.  Doing that makes it easier to deal with the smaller scale.  For me anyway.

Avatar
NoirVelours
Quebec
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
April 21, 2012 - 12:16 pm
Member Since: March 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 822
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

For the Bow right, I think just practicing bowing with the elbow not shoulder and wrist up and down makes you bow straight without even trying to control the hair on the strings. The mechanic of the wrist does the trick by itself. But... tryign to keep a good wrist flexibility+angle of the bow+reading the notes+fingering... ya it's overwhelming I can do all of that seperatly it's putting them together the problem. duncecap

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

Avatar
EJ-Kisz
Midwest, US
Members

Regulars
April 23, 2012 - 10:28 am
Member Since: April 9, 2012
Forum Posts: 605
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

eoj02 said
EJ----- the size difference is interresting.  i also have only been playing 2 months.  i often find myself playing second position notes without moving my thumb from it's anchor position.  i try to place it where fiddlerman suggested.  i have to focus on keeping my palm facing me.  as a guitar player, we want to keep our fingers perpendicular to the strings with our finger nails facing up, i guess when playing violin, our fingernails are supposed to face the bridge.  Doing that makes it easier to deal with the smaller scale.  For me anyway.

I'm still trying to break bad habits with finger placement! LOL  Plus, having playing string "bend" vibrato for so many years on bass & guitar doesn't help with vibrato on the violin! That's probably why I have such a death grip on the neck!

I've actually been doing these exercises where you take your thumb completely off the neck and play scales in order to not press down so hard on the finger board.  It's crazy, but helping!  I'm so use to having my thumb directly in the center of the neck on bass!  cheers 

“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” ~Benjamin Franklin

SkullSmall-1.jpg

 

Avatar
zickler88
Selangor, Malaysia
Member
Members
June 2, 2012 - 6:49 pm
Member Since: March 14, 2012
Forum Posts: 31
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Hey guys, This is my experience that I would like to share as a guitarist who try violin for almost three months.  It just my views, and I hope it can help guitarist out there who interested in violin.  I also hope that, you guys can share your thought too!

1.  My pinky is weaker but after playing the violin, it became stronger and it easily adapted to the guitar.  Maybe, violin player need to curve their finger and need more muscle in order to bend my pinky.

2.  Sometimes, the guitar and violin scales can be confusing but not too much.  Usually it happen when i played guitar and after that directly change to violin.  It is more harder when I try to learn new songs by hearing.

3.  Sometimes I did finger vibrato on guitar! FYI, I learn to do my vibrato by applied what FM told on guitar first.  Then, after get used with the movement, believe me, it is easily applied on violin.

4.  In term of theory, there is not much difference, basically it is all the same.

5.  Violin is harder to master compared with guitar.

Overall, I think, violin needs more discipline, I always complaining with my friends because of this.  Violin needs structured in all aspects.  Especially with posture, then I have to work on landing the left hand on the right notes, after that the right hand need to bow straight, then u have to breathe proper then bla bla bla..

But, it was fun and very worthy! Looking forward! 

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
June 2, 2012 - 10:15 pm
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Most of this advice is probably wrong.  It is probably very bad, and would get any violin teacher to hit you across the knuckles with a ruler or something.  Just chalk it up to me being crazy or something.  But..

I also have played guitar for years and have only been learning violin for less than 2 months now.  I certainly wouldn't give up the guitar.  There is so much that you can learn on guitar that works on violin and vice versa.  There are some differences, yes.  But a lot of what a person may know from guitar does translate to violin or helps in odd ways.

The neck and fingerboard of the violin are small compared to guitar.  Teeny, even.  And I have large hands with a wide "spread".  I can play 10ths on a piano easy.  But that is what makes the violin neck awesome.  On the violin, I can reach a bit over an octave on one string without even stretching my hand much.  I kinda wish I could do that on guitar.  LOL  But the point is, so many notes are in such easy reach.  It takes very little movement to play violin, comparatively.

Because the string length is so much shorter, the action on violin is so light, it feels like feathers.  The action on my guitars is good, but the violin needs only a tiny touch to finger a note.  And with violin, you can do a trill by just sort of fluttering the finger on and off the string while the bow is moving rather than hammering on and pulling off.  So you can do trills even faster than you can on guitar. 

Left hand position.  Hold the violin like it was a teeny little toy guitar.  Very easy to finger some notes while you pluck notes with the right thumb or fingers.  Now, without really changing how your left hand is on the neck, just move the violin up and set it on your shoulder.  Still easy and nothing new to learn.  It probably isn't correct, but it works and is comfortable, so I use it anyway. LOL  That whole fingernails facing out vs fingernails facing you thing somebody mentioned will be all taken care of by the way the hand naturally adjusts as you move the violin to the shoulder.  Or at least that was how it works for me.

Vibrato.  Well, it depends on how you do vibrato on guitar.  If I want a very mellow vibrato on guitar, I can do it like they show in the guitar books.  But what I will usually do is completely let go of the neck, so that only the pad of the finger is touching, and move the whole hand and sometimes wrist and arm to get a really fast insane sounding vibrato.  That also works on violin, so long as your left thumb or palm aren't actually holding the instrument.  Almost exactly the same move that would bend the string from side to side for vibrato on a guitar will roll your finger up and down the length of the string when you have moved it up to the shoulder because the angle of the hand/wrist is different up there.  If you want to do vibrato or slides, it is easy if the left thumb/palm are totally off the neck or only just touching it a little to steady it.  You can also do wild slides way up the fingerboard easy that way.

Now about that left thumb and palm.  Some guitar players worry a lot about where the thumb goes.  But it doesn't really matter.  With guitar, unless the action is set very high or the strings are maybe super heavy, you never really need the thumb or palm anyway.  Try it, you can do every chord, even full barre chords, with just the pressure of your fingertips and with your thumb and palm not touching the instrument at all.  I learned that from one of my guitar teachers who was a jazz studio musician.  In fact, if you use the thumb or palm to grip the neck at all, it slows you down.  You have to grab the neck to make a chord or notes and then let go of it and move and grab again..Play off just your fingertips, though, and your hand can move easily anywhere it needs to go.   It works for guitar, and on violin it works even better.  Where to put your thumb or what should the palm be doing?   It does not matter, so long as they aren't touching the neck to grip it.  You can hold up the violin with just the shoulder and your jaw on the chinrest, so you can actually not even have anything but fingertips touching the string.  You can let the neck rest on the thumb or palm anywhere they want if you are going to be in one area of the neck for a little bit, to relax and rest the neck muscles.  Let the thumb and palm do whatever they want to do naturally so long as you aren't using them to grip/squeeze the neck.  Just keep them relaxed.  Because on either guitar or violin (or anything else I can think of with strings), a tense left hand is a slow left hand.

This bit is likely to be considered heresy... But don't get too hung up on the "positions" in violin.  They probably serve good purpose, but to me they look too much like learning a guitar neck in "blocks" or "zones" like some books teach.  It is ok early on, but don't get too stuck in that way of thinking.  Sooner or later you will want the whole fingerboard, so get used to it at least a little even from the start.  Take any one string and find the places to finger it to play at least a whole octave.  Practice the scales the way they are usually shown for violin, where you go across the strings and keep the hand in the same place on the neck, sure.  But also spend at least a little time working scales up and down the string without changing from string to string.  It would be crazy to put tapes all the way up the fingerboard, so you use your ears to find the notes.  Use a tuning meter if you have one to check if you are getting them right.  If you have ever played guitar with anything like a bottleneck slide, it will be easier to find the notes.   When you get ok at playing a one octave scale on one string, then go further up the fingerboard a bit at a time to find the next notes.  If you let the thumb or palm touch the instrument it can be good for getting used to knowing where you are on th neck by its thickness or what parts of the body your hand may touch so you can "navigate" by that.  

All that being said, while practicing I avoid actually using vibrato or slides or notes way up the fingerboard at this point.  My current focus is getting my notes clean and precise and getting the bowing down.  Vibrato and slides can come in later.  I feel they are over-used by many violin players anyway.  But.. When I am done practicing, and I plug into an amp and effects to just play and have fun, then I use anything and everything. LOL  If I make sounds like a theremin or blues slide guitar or like an insane elephant attacking a bad horsie, it is all just good mad bad crazy music fun.  But that comes after practice time is done.  LOL  I use it as a treat sometimes to blow off some steam after I have gone through my regular practice.

Oh, and one more thing about violin.  Since it is tuned in 5ths, if you touch any two side by side strings at the same spot anywhere on the fingerboard, you have a 5th interval or "power chord" as some people call it on rock guitar.  You can't palm mute a violin (or at least no way I know of), but you can mute to get a sharp stop or a muted "chord" by either lifting your left-hand finger just a little so it touches the string but doesn't put it to the fingerboard, or you can use another finger to mute with, both of which are tricks sometimes used in funk guitar playing.  Use spiccato bowing and you can get some pretty neat rock/metal rhythm sounds going.  Especially if you have an electric violin and an amp with a good distortion sound or a "fuzz box" handy.  Just sayin'..

  violin-studentdevil-violinjimi-hendrixhats_off

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
myguitarnow
Laguna Beach
Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 4:58 am
Member Since: June 16, 2011
Forum Posts: 1094
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Oh my, a good guitar player can place his fingers any-ware on a string including his pinky and it makes it easier to learn violin. And yep, that advise is not good to me either. You need a new teacher or something zickler88.

Great post DanielB. I so agree!!!!!

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 3, 2012 - 6:40 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14968
27sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

DanielB said
The neck and fingerboard of the violin are small compared to guitar.  Teeny, even.  And I have large hands with a wide "spread".  I can play 10ths on a piano easy.  But that is what makes the violin neck awesome.  On the violin, I can reach a bit over an octave on one string without even stretching my hand much.  I kinda wish I could do that on guitar.  LOL  But the point is, so many notes are in such easy reach.  It takes very little movement to play violin, comparatively.

I am seriously impressed by the size and stretch of your super-hands. dazedPaganini could do stuff like that too. He had some kind of deformity that allowed him to do almost impossible things on the violin.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 3, 2012 - 6:48 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 14968
28sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Let's be respectful to everyone who gives advice here. I didn't think that zickler88's advise was bad. Sometimes something can feel a certain way for one person and not for another.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong Daniel, but I think Daniel was referring to his upcoming advice and not zicklers88's when he started out with:

Daniel Said

Most of this advice is probably wrong.  It is probably very bad, and would get any violin teacher to hit you across the knuckles with a ruler or something.  Just chalk it up to me being crazy or something.  But..

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
June 3, 2012 - 7:35 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Exactly so, FM.  I was only referring to what I was about to say, which goes with "Chalk it up to ME being crazy or something".

If that bit was unclear and it resulted in anyone thinking I was saying they were wrong about what they has said, I apologize, since that was not my intent.

Ok, there was one idea I was disagreeing with, and that was zickler88 talking about maybe giving up guitar to learn violin.  I personally have found playing both instruments to help both.  Well, after a little finger confusion at first and getting used to the tuning being in 5ths on violin and mostly in 4ths on guitar, but you can get over that pretty quick. 

But to repeat for emphasis, I was only talking about the advice *I* gave as being something probably very bad that would get someone hit over the knuckles with a ruler. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
springer
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 1:53 pm
Member Since: January 6, 2012
Forum Posts: 525
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I have learned so much more from trying to learn the Violin/Fiddle that I never enen considered when playing the sax. Its hard but I love it. ( I play for myself.)clapclapdancingbananabananadancing

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 2:16 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If I totally flopped on learning violin my backup choice was a tenor sax.   It may still be on the wall up in Ct. at Sam Ash in New Haven.  It is metallic purple and has to be a real chick magnet.   It's gotta be fantastic.

If my violin playing doesn't improve soon I may chuck it for the sax.

cool

( I would welcome something that has real notes banana)

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
springer
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 2:59 pm
Member Since: January 6, 2012
Forum Posts: 525
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Cool Oliver. I love the Sax (saprano).notenotecheerleadernotenote

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 3:29 pm
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1727
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

At least a sexy Sax will get you loads of chicks!

I am amazed at how old people of my age are.....

Avatar
Mad_Wed
Russia, Tatarstan rep. Kazan city
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 4:53 pm
Member Since: October 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 2849
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

DanielB said
 ..... On the violin, I can reach a bit over an octave on one string without even stretching my hand much.....

surprisedsurprisedsurprisedsurprisedsurprisedsurprisedsurprised I'm envy!

 F->B on E seems to be imposiible for me without moving the hand!!!

Avatar
springer
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
June 3, 2012 - 9:15 pm
Member Since: January 6, 2012
Forum Posts: 525
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Better not, if you are married Terry.bananadancingbananadevil-violinbanana

Avatar
ozmous
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
July 15, 2012 - 11:09 am
Member Since: July 8, 2012
Forum Posts: 328
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

i'm pretty sure that playing the violin is easier than playing the guitar, in guitar, you need to press more than one string, but in the violin, you can press any string or not press at all(open strings)

cheers! - ⁰ℨ

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
July 15, 2012 - 1:23 pm
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

On guitar, a lot of lead guitar work is only one or two notes at a time.  On violin one can play up to 4 strings t least *almost* at once.  So they aren't that different in that regard, though violin is more often used on one or two strings at once from what I have seen while guitar often plays 4 to 6 at a time for chords.

 

@Mad_Wed and FM: About the furthest I can reach and still be able to do something possibly useful like a trill is F to the octave.  I can push it from a reach into a stretch and make it up to about the A.  That is an uncomfortable stretch, and doesn't leave the 2nd or 3rd fingers able to do much of anything useful.  I don't imagine there is a lot of use for it, other than maybe playing a really wide doublestop, perhaps. LIke a B/G doublestop and then gliss the G up an octave or something.

I do use the long reach sometimes to do like something like F', F, C, F, F', A, F as a fast riff.  More often F up to the D though, since that reach moves my thumb to the right spot for 4th position, and that is actually handy sometimes.

I have known a few lead guitar players over the years who used a trick called "floating the joints" to reach further than I can, though.  That's pushing a stretch to the point that with quite a bit of extra pressure against the fretboard they would temporarily dislocate the first and/or fourth finger so they could stretch them out into an actual straight line from fingertip to fingertip.  Now *that* is def freakish to see.

I'm a wuss and stick to what the hand can do within range of the finger joints (meaning without intentionally dislocating them and popping them back while playing) and without much discomfort.  I just have kinda large hands and long fingers and very little "webbing" between the fingers because I played guitar, keyboard and etc for years. 

But pretty much anyone can widen their reach a bit by making a habit/fidget of pushing the fingers apart to stretch the webbing and maybe using a bit of lotion to keep the skin from cracking until it is used to being stretched and the webbing gets lower.  Piano teachers often tell people with smaller hands to do that just to get enough reach to be able to play some of the normal pieces that take reaching an octave or less on piano.

For comparison, on a piano, I can play 10ths while keeping form, and can just *barely* do a 12th by "tipping", which is just touching the front edge of the keys (not proper form at all, so it doesn't actually count) to barely manage to play the note.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Crazymotive
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
August 14, 2012 - 6:53 pm
Member Since: January 18, 2012
Forum Posts: 347
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
38sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Most of this advice is probably wrong.  It is probably very bad, and would get any violin teacher to hit you across the knuckles with a ruler or something.  

 

Hah.... this makes me laugh a bit because it makes me think back to my violin teacher as a child who would tell us a story that the teacher who taught him violin would rap  him hard across the knuckles with a switch if he played a single note wrong.  I tend to think he was mostly trying to scare us and to make us see him as not too strict because he would sometimes yell at us if we messed up too much. smile  I guess it was the idea of "as strict as he is it could be worst". laugh

Avatar
Rattus Norvegicus
Cornwall
Advanced member
Members
May 5, 2013 - 7:54 am
Member Since: May 5, 2013
Forum Posts: 92
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

what I've found is useful is that I don't have any real habit of bringing the neck around too far to the front, which I've heard is common, because I'm used to the neck being out to the left.

I have a reasonable spatial awareness of where my fingers are, and independent movement

doing one thing with one hand and another with the other is also a transferable skill.

 

a lot of the things that I have been told can be issues for beginners that haven't troubled me too much, most of which can be explained away from transferable skills from guitar, even though they are very different.

 

so far I haven't found that either interferes with the other, but the skills for both can be helpful for each other.

Avatar
Teapot
Member
Members
May 5, 2013 - 3:16 pm
Member Since: May 1, 2013
Forum Posts: 35
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
40sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

As told above,i believe any previous musical experience always helps.As a pianist,learning the violin was a shock at first because the two instruments were so different.But i play both now with no problem.My piano experience helped with intonation on the violin and playing the violin helped stengthen my left hand and thus improve my left hand technique on the piano.It's a double-way road.You profit form anything new you learn.The guitar seems to be much closer a cousin to the violin than the piano.Yes,bowing is tricky,but bowing is tricky for everyone regardless of any pre-existing musical experience.

FYI,my teacher was first a guitarist,then a violinist.And well,he teaches both instruments now,having mastered them  both.

My point is,you can learn 15 different instruments if you want to and put your heart to it.Don't underestimate the power of the human brain:)

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Mimi Aysha, emikemcc
Guest(s) 66
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Sofia Leo, TKDennis, FiddleDetroit, CookiesViolin, JPferrman, Designer 88, LyleA, Stephen, Dorque, Trisha, Elaisa, wonderputz, Gordon Shumway, dougga, Russionleo
Top Posters:
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2679
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Kevin M.: 1971
damfino: 1945
cdennyb: 1815
TerryT: 1727
Ferret: 1575
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 27156
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 56
Topics: 8353
Posts: 103879
Newest Members:
emikemcc, runnerwright, Littlebigman, JeffTRex, ilovebass065, Glenn
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 14968, KindaScratchy: 1754, coolpinkone: 4176, BillyG: 3256, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, cid: 1787