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"BUT, are you messing with me again? "
i dont make a habit of the emily
not the whole tune.. but i do hear it.
"I believe the more help given to musicians in folk music notation, the more freedom we have to add variation & improv without losing a sense of original intent."
do you mean help as in show people how to notate
or
help as in whats notated will help someone trying to play it later.
For me I look at notation like a power point is to a topic. or maybe the minutes from a formal meeting. you can get the messqge and what was said...but you cant explain the inflections in voice or body language of the speakers.
I think if i hear a tune i like. And for the sake of discussion its syncopated. I should be able to go through a few settings on the session, get a version thats close, and work on getting that feel without needing everything exact on the notation. NOT that i can exactly but if i cant...it doeant matter. theres a proficiency thing in my playing unrelated to how its notated. I need to work on my fiddling, they dont need to improve their notation ability.
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@ABitRusty -
Sorry, thought you were having a bit of fun with me! 🙄
Btw, I went back & edited my "Windbroke" post to point out where syncopation is the most obvious to see in the versions at The Session.
I listened again to "The Killarney Boys Of Pleasure", "Ormond Sound" & "Midsummer's Night". "Ormond Sound" feels a little different, see some 2nd-beat quarter notes with mordants(?) - nothing jagged, still pretty a 2 pulse per bar groove. I definitely hear accents on the 1st & 3rd beats in the other 2 tunes, so I checked out the notation at The Session & still couldn't find any syncopation. 😞 I DID see some bars in versions of "The Killarney Boys Of Pleasure" with dotted notes [dotted quarter & eighth - dotted quarter & eighth], but that still feels like a pulse on the 1 & 3 to me (am I screwed?). The 5th version at The Session (Lenardo Meister) appeared VERY syncopated, but geez, makes the melody totally unrecognizable!!! 😖
do you mean help as in show people how to notate
or
help as in whats notated will help someone trying to play it later.
Sorry (again 😬), I'm kinda mixing ideas & didn't mean to get off the topic of syncopation.
More like a 'heads up' reminder that Fiddle tune notation traditionally hasn't been the greatest - why I wanted to point out some versions will show syncopation & other versions don't, like hey - there's a smoking gun.
Not advocating change to what's already been done, but think it's important to point out there are problems so something can be changed in the future.
I think beginner Fiddlers (& those new to these genres) RELY on tune notation nowadays, because they aren't in any real position to 'interpret' them - so hardly their fault when they learn from sheet music & then it doesn't sound right.
...but you cant explain the inflections in voice or body language of the speakers.
Geez, I KNOW you've heard Klezmer fiddle, or what about the thread where violin sounds like an erhu? Violin is supposed to be the closest instrument to human voice.
I keep searching for more ways 😁, but there ARE ways to show rhythm and accent idiosyncrasies that I believe are being overlooked (for the most part)... guess I'm not doing a very good job of pointing them out (yet).
Okay, I'm dreaming - I want to be able to transcribe syncopation in ways that convey how I feel. It's important (for me) to be able to say 'what', 'where', & 'why' I hear something in music - or see it in notation... I need to be confident in this.
...not denying I still have a few mud puddles to walk through.
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ELCBK said
@ABitRusty -Sorry, thought you were having a bit of fun with me! 🙄
Btw, I went back & edited my "Windbroke" post to point out where syncopation is the most obvious to see in the versions at The Session.
I listened again to "The Killarney Boys Of Pleasure", "Ormond Sound" & "Midsummer's Night". "Ormond Sound" feels a little different, see some 2nd-beat quarter notes with mordants(?) - nothing jagged, still pretty a 2 pulse per bar groove. I definitely hear accents on the 1st & 3rd beats in the other 2 tunes, so I checked out the notation at The Session & still couldn't find any syncopation. 😞 I DID see some bars in versions of "The Killarney Boys Of Pleasure" with dotted notes [dotted quarter & eighth - dotted quarter & eighth], but that still feels like a pulse on the 1 & 3 to me (am I screwed?). The 5th version at The Session (Lenardo Meister) appeared VERY syncopated, but geez, makes the melody totally unrecognizable!!! 😖
do you mean help as in show people how to notate
or
help as in whats notated will help someone trying to play it later.
Sorry (again 😬), I'm kinda mixing ideas & didn't mean to get off the topic of syncopation.
More like a 'heads up' reminder that Fiddle tune notation traditionally hasn't been the greatest - why I wanted to point out some versions will show syncopation & other versions don't, like hey - there's a smoking gun.
Not advocating change to what's already been done, but think it's important to point out there are problems so something can be changed in the future.
I think beginner Fiddlers (& those new to these genres) RELY on tune notation nowadays, because they aren't in any real position to 'interpret' them - so hardly their fault when they learn from sheet music & then it doesn't sound right.
...but you cant explain the inflections in voice or body language of the speakers.
Geez, I KNOW you've heard Klezmer fiddle, or what about the thread where violin sounds like an erhu? Violin is supposed to be the closest instrument to human voice.
I keep searching for more ways 😁, but there ARE ways to show rhythm and accent idiosyncrasies that I believe are being overlooked (for the most part)... guess I'm not doing a very good job of pointing them out (yet).
Okay, I'm dreaming - I want to be able to transcribe syncopation in ways that convey how I feel. It's important (for me) to be able to say 'what', 'where', & 'why' I hear something in music - or see it in notation... I need to be confident in this.
...not denying I still have a few mud puddles to walk through.
forget about ormond sound and midsummers night. Im talking about first 10 seconds of killarney. goes something like this. it has a bit of holding on to notes longer than usual and gives it a syncopated feel to me. especially to other versions. This may not be EXACTLY like the track or some thesession version. just something i threw together to try and illustrate what i hear.
someone needs to notate EXACTLY how to vibrato. its really lacking in the way we do it and i think it would help people if it was notated correctly. Someone that has beautiful vibrato should be able to notate out with traditional sheet music what they are doing exactly 😉🙂 ....yes messing there. 😁
In all seriousness ( as can be ) new tools are out there like MELODYNE that can not only help with note pitches but can analyze everything about a piece of music and give you a graphical representation.
IMAGINE... instead of looking at a piece of sheet music you can on a tablet look at a screen that shows pitch changes, rhythm changes, notes, pitch drift .. it actually CAN show what vibrato is.
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@ABitRusty -
You really pick the interesting tunes!
The Floating Crowbar version is definitely very different from any other one I've see so far (& I looked outside of The Session).
I see what you are saying... if it is tied across the bar line.
I'm skeptical, because 'tied notes' are supposed to sound like only 1 long note, but I hear 2 A's bowed. I also hear a D & 2 E's in place of your dotted quarter E, don't think it's a pick up (but I could be wrong).
Hope you are happy - you made me learn this tune & without an E string, so I got some shifting in on the A string (Bugsy had a few objections, but I LOVE IT)! 🤗
There's another tune that I think would go really well with "Killarney Boys of Pleasure" - "The Clan Ranald" (aka Lamey's Reel). This one makes it easy to push accents on the 'off' beats for syncopation!
...going to have to learn this one now, too (😖 just so darn busy right now).
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@elcbk For the music Ive been fiddlin.. I would almost put synocpation in the ornament box along with rolls cuts slides even vibrato. MY thought... for sure not a definiton or reality. especially when considering music in general.
And why is it seems to me in that rarely is a whole tune syncopated ( Irish ) Its when theres been some type of established rhythm in a tune.. and a part pulls or emphasizes the beat off that established rhythm that I would consider it syncopated. And it would also have to keep a flow of some sorts. it couldnt be just be bad playing 🙂 and not keeping time correctly. otherwise that opens the door for a whole nuther angle.
And It could almost be over done if used too much in my taste. It could become a kinda jazz hands talent show kinda thing. Not sure how to explain what I mean there. But when its used in a small section or maybe thrown in a final repeat of the tune is when it has an affect.
I like that version of Kilarney boys of pleasure because it has that push pull kinda thing in the A part that I havent heard in other versions. Id lump it in as being syncopated.
I wouldnt call a tune that has a dotted rhythm the whole way through syncopated. And in any particular tune even if there were ties across barlines..if it doesnt emphasize off that established rhythm somehow its just a tie for a longer note or something.
for instances TO ME..the Altan version of Clan Ronald doesnt sound syncopated. Its great and has a groovey dotted swingy feel but not hearing anything syncopated. It may be by some definition but if they were trying to be I missed it. Not their fault...I just got swept into the whole thing and it all flowed as one piece. I still really like that tune and especially that version.
again..just how i have come to think of it in a small way.
EDIT***
Yes I agree with
This one makes it easy to push accents on the 'off' beats for syncopation!
at first i thought you were saying you felt it was syncopated. Actually Im thinking maybe part of the fun of these tunes is messing around and changing up when practicing. See if I can syncopate a phrase while a drum track or something playing. Throw alot of swing into it...take it out.. play a section swung then go more straight. All that has to be AFTER i have the tune down pretty well.
This is something Im trying to concentrate a bit more on lately because depending on the situation the same tune may have a slightly different feel. always good to be able to shift or adapt on the fly.
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@ABitRusty -
I'm starting to understand what my body is telling me, but counting would obviously be better. May sound silly, but if only my head wants to rock back & forth in 4/4 - then I'm feeling an even groove with the pulse on 1 & 3. I agree with you that dotted notes don't always mean syncopation, especially if that normal groove is not disturbed. I'm still feeling this main, even, groove in Killarney but in a sophisticated way - it's very clever of Floating Crowbar & I want to study it more. Lamey's Reel makes me feel accents that are not in a 1 & 3 beat groove.
So, easy to see why music gets interpreted differently, by different people - THANK GOODNESS! ...life could get boring. 😁
I can see syncopation as a bowing 'ornament' in the form of 'accents' - especially if you selectively accent an 'off' beat in an otherwise even rhythm. For anyone new reading, this is an excellent video for bowing - "Playing Accented Notes". Not sure if switching to, or adding, a syncopated bowing 'pattern' could be considered an 'ornament', but would definitely emphasize syncopation, e.g., switching from straight 4/4, or the 1 & 3 groove, over to something like the 3, 3, 2 ("kangaroo, kangaroo, kitty") bowing (post #4). Post #3's video on "Playing Hooked Bow Strokes in Syncopated Rhythms" shows how to bow in a syncopated way, but are these patterns really to play along with a syncopated tune - or meant to 'make' a tune syncopated? ...can't find where I put my Violin Works book right now, to see if there's an answer to my question in it. 🥴
Since many fiddle tunes were traditionally meant for dancing, I've looked at syncopation in dance steps - and paid particular attention to how music makes a dancer want to move.
I think syncopation shines against an even beat! You and I have both enjoyed playing fairly straight tunes against more unusual rhythms.
This brings me back to polyrhythms and playing a 'composite' rhythm. So, it's interesting (to me) if a dancer uses syncopated steps against an even-beat music, or dances a subdivided even rhythm of steps - against syncopated music.
I think of the latter watching the Gardiner Brothers video, dancing to the "Glasgow Roaster".
Here's the tune I want to learn:
I think it's very cool to perceive our Violins/Violas/Cellos as TWO different instruments - a 'melody' instrument AND a 'rhythm' instrument, with a zillion ways to mix them!
🤔... I grew up singing melodies - learning lyrics with voice inflections and loving if a chorus had a different rhythm or different feeling because of a key change - surprises! I LOVE the idea of a tune dropping into a rabbit hole - as long as it returns somewhere down the path set on at the beginning of the tune. Variations and surprises (not 'mistake' ones 🤣) are important to me, but I haven't been showing hardly anything in what I play & I need to make it a higher priority.
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Bare with me - wasn't sure if I should try to sort this out here or one of the other threads. 🥴
Got my brain in a tangle going down another rabbit hole after @ABitRusty & I heard different things in Killarney Boys of Pleasure. Can't tell if I need help getting untangled or if I need help bunching it all together! (lol)
Been trying to sort out more about how Rhythm & Pulses relate to a Groove - AND, where does syncopation fall in the mix? It's hard to find anyone that really pins down "Groove" & I'm still wondering what might be enhanced in notation to show it. I'm also back thinking just by adding more swing in a tune, it might possibly cause syncopation. Even though we can 'swing' notes, everything gets wishy-washy when not only talking about 'feeling a groove', but also talking about 'feeling swing'!
My examples:
Like the term "swing", which is used to describe a cohesive rhythmic "feel" in a jazz context, the concept of "groove" can be hard to define. Marc Sabatella's article Establishing The Groove argues that "groove is a completely subjective thing." He claims that "one person may think a given drummer has a great feel, while another person may think the same drummer sounds too stiff, and another may think he is too loose." Similarly, a bass educator states that while "groove is an elusive thing" it can be defined as "what makes the music breathe" and the "sense of motion in the context of a song". (Wikipedia)
OR:
Like the term "groove", which is used to describe a cohesive rhythmic "feel" in a funk or rock context, the concept of "swing" can be hard to define. Indeed, some dictionaries use the terms as synonyms: "Groovy ... denotes music that really swings." The Jazz in America glossary defines swing as, "when an individual player or ensemble performs in such a rhythmically coordinated way as to command a visceral response from the listener (to cause feet to tap and heads to nod); an irresistible gravitational buoyancy that defies mere verbal definition." (Chromatone)
OR:
Groove encompasses the interplay between the beat, rhythm, and pulse, creating a distinct feel that can make a song irresistible. It is the infectious quality that makes us want to move and groove along. Groove is often created by the interaction of multiple instruments or elements within a composition, with each contributing to the overall rhythmic feel. It can be tight and precise or loose and relaxed, depending on the style and genre of music. Groove is the intangible element that can make a song memorable and captivating. (Drums with Steve)
"Two Concepts of Groove: Musical Nuances, Rhythm and Genre", about how people use the term in different ways, but I need to read it over again when my brain is fresh. 😵
I feel 2 pulses in a 4/4 bar for a Reel... but so what - because I can also feel 2 pulses per bar in 6/8 jig, a 4/4 hornpipe, and a march. I read today that Polkas are strong 2/4 (but I feel THREE pulses in a 2/4 POLKA!), while Marches & Gavottes are 2/2 (cut time)! 😳 ...guess I've seen too many Marches notated in 4/4 - I still don't understand how a March is supposed have a fast tempo and that's the reason for using 'Cut Time' (I can't envision people 'marching' fast)!
AND, since 'Cut Time' & 'Common Time' can look the same (cut time can still have a bar of 4 quarter notes) - is there a difference in pulses, because I also saw pointed out that the 2nd pulse in 'Common Time' is weaker than the 1st - the 2nd pulse I feel in Killarney Boys does NOT feel weaker.
Is there a difference between 'Common Time' and 4/4 for a Reel? I remember getting the impression that some fast Irish reels could be an even 4 beat rhythm.
Got to thinking about the possible difference in the pulse found in 2/2 vs 2/4, too.
This video shows (at 1:51) 'Cut Time' has a Sw pulse, while 'Common Time' has a SwMw pulse. 'Cut Time' is suppose to be easier to read, but has more barlines.
I'm sure the difference in pulse strengths matters in a groove, doesn't it?
I can see mixing up pulse strengths to cause syncopation, but seems there would still have to be an obvious repeat of a pattern (or patterns) for a groove - and I also feel a tune has to have at least a tiny bit of lilt (or swing) otherwise I don't see how it can be a 'cool' groove. 😎
...I still need to go over this probably to make more sense, but I'm tired & the 2/4 Polka pulse thing is still freaking me out. 😣
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Try tapping foot 4 times for a measure and play a reel to that. Now try tapping foot 2 times per measure and play a reel to that.
The 2 taps per measure is more of a cut time feel and is the advantage of counting that way. Transcriptions look less scary in 4/4. Look at stuff tanscribed in Oneills vs say thesession.
whether its beat 3 in 4/4 or beat 2 in cut...the tune generally has that beat emphasised a bit less. It all depends on players though. thats in general.
EDIT***
dont forget theres 6/8 marches.
ANNND ANOTHER ***EDIT
I think people will normally clap 2 beats on a 4/4 type tune whatever it is. Unless its really slow then it may seem more natural to count 1,2,3,4.
I personally unless I am setting up a drum track really never think about it. Im either playing along to a recording or trying to practice from memory.
If im trying to play something new which i dont have tune floqting around in my head and using a metronome Ill set it up with beat 1 as one sound and 2nd beat as something else. I may have it as a 4/4 but ill turn off 2 and 4.
I got to thinking about how does a dancer performing a reel count it qnd found this. Alot not pertaining but may show something especially later into it around 4:00. got your prancing shoes on @elcbk ?
Then also how a bohdran player will count. This is interesting. what do you think about his 1,2,3,4 when counting to those tunes at the beginning. Now when he got to the picadillys it seemed more like what i expect. his finger counting. They will do more with each beat and off beat.
I know these are off the syncopation topic and why i just included in this post as edit additions.
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@ABitRusty -
Oooo... the Girls are going to go crazy when I show them the dancing video!
I don't have any trouble counting the beats.
Interesting she (can't find her name) says something like, "start on the 4th beat of the 8th measure for counting", but then says 'go' and actually starts counting on the '1'. 🤨
Little hard to hear the music at the beginning of Ruairi's video, but seemed he was counting pulse, not beat (but I didn't slow it down to check). His 4th pattern is syncopated, but Ruairi messed me up talking about his 2nd pattern (the 'offbeat' pattern) - it wasn't really 'off' beat, because it's the 3rd beat of 4/4 & usually already stressed (almost as much as the 1st beat in 4/4). So, if he is going to call the 3rd beat 'off'... 🤔 idk - seems most people would consider 'off' to be accents between the beats, or at least I'd say beat 2 or 4 would be 'off' from the norm. Can't deny that eliminating the strong accent on the '1' will wake you up. (lol)
So, what I took from Ruairi:
- All Bodhran players do their own thing. 😄
- 4/4 Reel Time pulse IS assumed even (MMMM or maybe wwww), until a player wishes to place an accent - it's NOT the same as what's expected in 4/4 Common Time (SwMw). ...answered one of my questions. 🤗
- his syncopated pattern is the same 3,3,2 pattern that Julia Plumb showed for syncopated bowing video (post #4). ..I know there are more patterns.
In the end... I'm still feeling "The Killarney Boys of Pleasure" as having a groove with strong pulses on the 1 & 3 that I can't overlook 😔 it's just overall too even for me to feel it syncopated, maybe it's because it doesn't feel as 'jagged' as "Freemount Bypass" to me - maybe it's just because all these cool tunes are feeling 'normal' to me! I'll probably see everything differently later, but I really do like it's got some long notes used like what Burke & Hayes do in their playing.
Thank you for the help - I feel less stressed!
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I feel 2 pulses in a 4/4 bar for a Reel... but so what - because I can also feel 2 pulses per bar in 6/8 jig, a 4/4 hornpipe, and a march. I read today that Polkas are strong 2/4 (but I feel THREE pulses in a 2/4 POLKA!), while Marches & Gavottes are 2/2 (cut time)! 😳 ...guess I've seen too many Marches notated in 4/4 - I still don't understand how a March is supposed have a fast tempo and that's the reason for using 'Cut Time' (I can't envision people 'marching' fast)!
AND, since 'Cut Time' & 'Common Time' can look the same (cut time can still have a bar of 4 quarter notes) - is there a difference in pulses, because I also saw pointed out that the 2nd pulse in 'Common Time' is weaker than the 1st - the 2nd pulse I feel in Killarney Boys does NOT feel weaker.
Is there a difference between 'Common Time' and 4/4 for a Reel? I remember getting the impression that some fast Irish reels could be an even 4 beat rhythm.
Got to thinking about the possible difference in the pulse found in 2/2 vs 2/4, too.
This video shows (at 1:51) 'Cut Time' has a Sw pulse, while 'Common Time' has a SwMw pulse. 'Cut Time' is suppose to be easier to read, but has more barlines.
I'm sure the difference in pulse strengths matters in a groove, doesn't it?
I can see mixing up pulse strengths to cause syncopation, but seems there would still have to be an obvious repeat of a pattern (or patterns) for a groove - and I also feel a tune has to have at least a tiny bit of lilt (or swing) otherwise I don't see how it can be a 'cool' groove. 😎
...I still need to go over this probably to make more sense, but I'm tired & the 2/4 Polka pulse thing is still freaking me out. 😣
thought you were having trouble counting beats..sorry i misunderstood.
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@ABitRusty -
thought you were having trouble counting beats..sorry i misunderstood.
Don't be sorry, I'm amazed (and appreciate) you tried to decipher anything from my mess of thoughts! 😄
You still got me to rethink... it helped!
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I played the 1st tune in Fourth Moon's Glasgow Roaster Set (post #68) this morning, then afterwards decided to see what makes it tick. Didn't think there was notation at The Session, but there is!
"Glasgow Roast Strathspey" - this notation is GREAT, makes the midi sound exactly like it should!
So, it's a strathspey!
No cross-bar ties or rests here, but there are a few ties within bars that that cause syncopation. There's a strong accent on some of the 2nd beats, dotted eighth/sixteenth combos that swing, plus other dotted eighths that change where normal accents would fall.
There's a really good discussion at The Session - "Strathspey Ornamentation and Variation" worth reading over. Interesting talk about 'Highlands' - how they are different & how they came about! I see they have been listed on The Session as 'strathspeys', 'barndances' & 'reels' (there's just no category for 'Highland').
Fintan Vallely’s “The Companion To Irish Traditional Music” [ 1st edition ] - pp187 / 188 :
“Highland” - Properly called “The Highland Schottische”. This is a couple dance introduced to Co. Donegal in the mid-1800s by migratory workers returning from Scotland. A local variant of the dance also emerged which was known as the Irish Highland. The dance itself is no longer common, but the tune type remains popular within the Donegal fiddle music repertoire. The higland is in 4/4 time with an accent on the first beat of the bar, which is usually a crotchet value. The tempo is more relaxed than that of the reel. The highland is characterised by the use of dotted rhythms articulated in a subtle manner and not in the jagged fashion popular in Scotland. This, combined with the tempo chosen creates the swing peculiar to the highland". (Kenny)
Subtle syncopation?
...probably what I notice in many tunes & just as vague! 🥴
Anyone have a hardcopy of Fintan Vallely’s “The Companion To Irish Traditional Music”?
...I have to stop buying books 😔, just going to start using Kindle/E books.
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I've been talking about syncopated reels a bit in my blog lately, but there are some REALLY GREAT TUNES to learn in THIS thread! I did learn the Glasgow Roast & several others... still want to learn "Windbroke" & more here.
Forgot to mention - there are THREE tunes in the Glasgow Roaster Set (post 68), played by Fourth Moon! Glasgow Roast (strathspey), Café Racer (slip jig), and The Reaction (reel) - all written by David Lombardi (Mohsen Amini also co-wrote Glasgow Roast). Thanks to sheet music/mp3 at thesession.org!
TRY ONE!!!
@ABitRusty -
Post 65 - you mentioned:
...someone needs to notate EXACTLY how to vibrato. its really lacking in the way we do it and i think it would help people if it was notated correctly. Someone that has beautiful vibrato should be able to notate out with traditional sheet music what they are doing exactly 😉🙂 ....yes messing there. 😁
...because - I actually found this topic discussed at the Young Composers Site! Notating Vibrato for Strings & How To Notate Vibrato?
...kinda like the idea of showing it as a wave form to fit the type!
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When I started this thread back in 2022, I had a lot of different feelings... most probably frustration. Constantly coming up with more questions in my quest to identify things I was feeling, seeing & hearing in music, a year later I went on to start Emily's Exploration - Swing, Syncopation & Other Uneven Music Blog.
I must've been in the wrong place at the wrong time, because this morning I watched a recent video by David Bennett that might've prevented a good deal of my frustration the last few years... I think!
WHAT IS SYNCHOPATION? Darn good video all the way to the end (best I've seen anywhere). Too many good points for me to recap - types/how to add, notate synchopation.
Seems like everything we've been talking about, but wrapped up in a neat little package... better late than never! Of course I'm glad I learned a lot on my own, but jeez... nope, no 20/20 hindsight. 😁
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