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OKAY... had to take a break from EVERYTHING, so here's a set the Tannahill Weaver's play. I started working on them today, except I'll count myself lucky when I get these all clean at HALF this speed! 😵 ...seriously think these sound better slower, anyway!
Anyone feeling the syncopation here? Free sheet music at thesession.org!
"The Smokey Lum", "Maggie's Pancakes", "Dancing Feet", "The Mason's Apron"!
I was a bit disheartened when I read, what felt like almost a consensus at The Session, that there's no place for syncopation in ITM (Irish Trad Music). ...just finding that hard to swallow, given the maritime, even Scottish influences apparent in much of the music - besides, I've already found quite a few syncopated tunes on the site.
...there's definitely syncopation history in the Nordic & European Folk music, too!
I did find another GREAT site that describes the different types of syncopation, GREAT examples in different genres (including Medieval, but MUCH more) - AND GREAT help with practicing syncopation!
Get Rhythm: All About Syncopation - Music U
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Whats the context of the topic at the session you spoke of? pertaining to syncopation.
I think in general its less than say old time..but to flat out say it doesnt exists..not buying. especially when alot of the time it will depend on the group or person playing.
couldnt listen to it all but somewhere around 1:10 yeah a bit there...especially the backing
this is my guess as far as why people would frown on ITM syncopation. And this is session playing only.. if you have a group of people playing whats expected to be a straight or slightly swung tune..and someone starts syncopating phrases.. it could throw the whole set out of kilter. this is just Me thinking of reasons.
or possibly one of those competetions where people play and are judged.. thats probably, and no experience here, expected to stick to some agreed upon tradition. give it a few more years and that may change.
a performance group playing THEIR versions is different Id say.
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@ABitRusty -
Wow, depending on if I search "syncopation" or "syncopated", I got different results at The Session! ...looks like I have more to read. 😊
I think I just focused too much on the 1st reply here, but there were a few more comments that may have just been directed at the OP example there:
About syncopated tunes and 7th chords
The world of music is FULL of wonderful chord progressions and substitutions, wonderful melodic excursions, and rhythmic possibilities…your example is a great start, wonderful playing and delightful to hear. Just don’t try to call it Irish Traditional. Trad is, by most interpretations, rather limited to the major and minor chords, rarely uses Dom 7s or minor 7’s, even rarer 9th’s, diminished and augmented, suspended, or any of the other chords from the massive collection of possibilities. At least not on purpose. Heck, in some discussions I’ve read that some players even deny the existence of the C natural note. The closest it gets to syncopation might a little swing. Yeah I know you can find a few examples of something else but the operative word here is “traditional”.
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meh...that whole discussion was about his tune he composed. To be honest...it doesnt sound like an irish jig to me either. Its a great tune! I think a group like Lunasa could really do something with it.. but doesnt sound Irish to me even if played on a flute in 6/8. Im not even sure the OP said it was.
As far as what is acceptable for syncopation and a backers choice of chords... kind of getting into a keepers of the faith kinda attitude maybe..
BUT... I understand the point and heres why to ME
first
I really think alot of the discussions on thesession pertain to..surprise.. sessions.
For the most part I think from what Ive seen (youtube..shared videos by friends travelling) you can go any where in the world and visit a session and ask for them to play Cooleys reel and hear the same tune.. maybe a tad slower or faster but same. THATS why tradition is important and why people play this music. They like THAT tune.. or any of the 1000's of others... If it starts being changed it becomes another tune and youll get pushback if you call it cooleys. And if tried to play in a session all changed around maybe rightly so. who am i to expect people to use my interpretation of a famous session tune in a visited session.
Context...theres a way people play in a session... outside of that could be anything. make it great enough and have enough people play it that way and years from now it could be a traditional tune.
dont expect that overnight though no matter how good one thinks it is.
what are we talking about again because i need to practice cooleys reel.
oh yeah syncopation. nevermind gonna practice Franks Reel
🤣😀
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This is a great tune
I bet at some point someine started changing the feel of the tune..tinkered here and there ...now we have this. Not Irish..its part of the old time tradition now.
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@ABitRusty -
I couldn't hear any syncopation in "Over The Moor To Maggie" & I'm having a hard time picking out the syncopation in the Old Time version, "Waynesboro" - maybe in the last half?
Can you help me out by telling me where you hear it in those tunes?
Think I've been listening to too much of the Set from Tannahill Weavers, especially "Maggie's Pancakes" - found Altan plays it in a great Set, too! (lol)
LOVE IT... up to my eyeballs in syncopation!
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ELCBK said
I couldn't hear any syncopation in "Over The Moor To Maggie" & I'm having a hard time picking out the syncopation in the Old Time version, "Waynesboro" - maybe in the last half?Can you help me out by telling me where you hear it in those tunes?
never said they were/had...their post is related to the previous. Ive heard waynesboro played with some sections that way though. point was a tune being changed.
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@ABitRusty -
Geez, you have NO idea how hard I tried to find syncopation in those 🤨 only because I thought you were trying to show me some. 🤣
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The more I dig into this set (back in post #41), "The Smokey Lum", "Maggie's Pancakes", "Dancing Feet", "The Mason's Apron", the more I want to learn ALL of it! 🤗
I HATE EVEN LISTENING TO THIS AT THIS SPEED - could be happy anywhere from 124 to 160 BPM (I'll be lucky to make 100)! Anyway, it will probably take me the rest of my life to learn even slow. Guess it's a good thing I'm starting now! (lol)
These syncopated tunes are Scottish in origin (from what I've read, various sources) - come to think of it, there really IS a lot of syncopation found in Scottish music - especially in Piper tunes & Strathspeys!
The 1st two tunes, "The Smokey Lum" & "Maggie's Pancakes", are composed by Stuart Morison (Scotland band,Tannahill Weaver's Fiddler), who also composed "The Unicorn Waltz" that I love to play. "Dancing Feet" was composed by G.S. McLennan, a Highland Piper.
"The Mason's Apron" (aka "Braes Of Glenorchy") is a traditional tune. I've heard Kevin Burke mention he believes it's Scottish in origin. John Sheehan played a version with The Dubliners (great close-up view) with many variations in different positions (VERY unusual for Irish tune playing!), I'm sure he learned it from Sean Maguire. I like the Tannahill Weaver's version, BUT - Dezi Donnelly takes the prize, as far as I'm concerned - just fascinating!
...without any syncopation - "The Mason's Apron" would be boring, no matter how many variations are played!
The tutorial about Syncopated Emphasis For Reels (post #4) is a great place to start, if you want to add some syncopation to the reels you already play!
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...without any syncopation - "The Mason's Apron" would be boring, no matter how many variations are played!
to you! I mean kinda general right? 🤔😀
Thought that version while great, sounded like orange blossom special could be next in the set. I think its a great performance though. dont misunderstand that.. it was very entertaining. ill never be able to do that.
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@ABitRusty -
I get what you are saying - show tunes vs. session tunes & know your focus is on the latter.
😕 yeah, makes a good show tune & these guys are all just crazy, out to win the race!
Hey, I still like it & everything is doable/learnable at a snail's pace, one phrase (or measure) at a time! 🤗
Honestly, I have to test out/listen to tune prospects at about 80 BPM, to make sure they sound good, first - because I may never exceed much more than that speed.
...just call me 'tortoise'. 😁
Btw, if anyone wants to learn to play the Orange Blossom Special, Fiddlerman has 1 tutorial and Lora, at Red Desert Violin, has a series of 8 tutorials - easy to follow.
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tortise..
Once you have orange blossom down..you can change the name of masons apron to devils dream and have yourself a set!!
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@ABitRusty -
I've started on the Smokey Lum in the Tannahill Weaver's set - I may kick the bucket before I ever GET to the Mason's Apron!
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you and me both.. at least at branson, mo. speed 😉
oh me..that was a fun hour or so.
btw really like altan AND their video you shared up there.
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Yes, I like that whole set, but especially Maggie's Pancakes.
...I even like Kevin's pancakes.
My speed:
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@elcbk I like this speed up till the end. and some syncopation fer yah too. 😀
havent you noticed there just some tunes that make that syncopated type bowing fall easier. Not that its easy or i could play it like any of these...but sometimes the tune itself makes it easier. Or maybe youre on to something. Maybe its just so repetive that whoevers playing it solo has to do something different to make interesting.
Ok as a performance piece your right..its needs something to change it up. 🤔😄👌 But get a whole group playing together and masons as par of a larger set maybe not so much. just play it and move on.
Another version Ive liked with a slightly different feel.
oh and BTW... dibs on THE_RUSTY_TURTLE screen name
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@ABitRusty -
That was cool!
Yep, I was fine until they sped it up... darn professionals.
I promise not to steal The Rusty Turtle moniker. 😊
Did you see the discussion at The Session - the comments about the Devil's Dream Hornpipe? 🤣 Pretty cool it's known in Scotland as "De’il Amang The Tailors"... and they don't let you forget it (see what else it's known as)!
🤔... think I need an attitude adjustment.
Got to stop thinking of myself as an amateur the rest of my life - it's humble, but depressing. Rather think of myself as a Fiddle Fanatic... or Freak.
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