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ELCBK said
It starts out at 9/8, grouped 3,3,3, but at 2:30 the video sounds like the meter switches to 5/4 time for approx 16 bars - then at approx 3:00 I hear 4/4 that changes into an 8 beat syncopated rhythm (3,3,2 then 3,2,3), then to a faster 4/4 (maybe more like 4/8?). Seems like a 3 part tune to me & isn't notated that way at The Session...........
Whether it's 3,3,2 or 3,2,3 or 2,3,3 in a 8/8 time signature depends on how the composer wanted to play the "triplets", because the 3 is basically always played as a triplet when grouped like that.
I am having a time crisis, though...
Reels seem like they are played in 4/8 (to me), not 4/4. So, when does a FAST 4/4 become a 4/8, or 4/16 - where's the BPM cutoff??? I watched one video that said there wasn't really any difference between 3/4 & 3/8... really? Why isn't it twice as fast?
The time signature has nothing to do with speed. Usually it's chosen to make counting easier. It's about grouping more than speed.
The truth of the matter is that you would expect to play a 4/4 faster than a 4/8 in most situations. A 4/2 would be even faster. You'd basically be playing cut time.
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes, but you could just as easily write the same thing in 4/4 with half as many bar lines. So if you mentally group music by bars, you would technically want to play the same exact music written in 4/4, faster than 4/8.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@Fiddlerman -
THANK YOU, FOR YOUR HELP!
First, I thought you messed me up MORE 🤣, but actually, you made me think differently & I REALLY appreciate that! 🤗
...I do hope I've finally gotten at least part of this.
Guess I must've been a magician in my former life to think a 'whole' note, a 'quarter' note, or an eighth note, etc... has some kind of an innate time duration value, a measurable length, without any reference to speed! (duh) 😳 I can see now, this is ridiculous - kinda like a 'half', or 'quarter' of something means absolutely nothing... unless I know what it is half, or quarter 'of'!
So, 'notes' ONLY have a value because a tempo (BPM) has been established, e.g., even a 3/4 waltz could sound exactly like 3/1 - at the right tempo... makes sense in that respect!
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes, but you could just as easily write the same thing in 4/4 with half as many bar lines. So if you mentally group music by bars, you would technically want to play the same exact music written in 4/4, faster than 4/8.
Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?) Did you mean there would probably be a lot of sixteenth & thirty-second notes? 🥴 But my brain still wants to fight me on this - because it seems 4 eighth notes should at least imply 'faster' tempo than 4 quarter notes - 4/4 & 4/8 are still both just 'Simple' Time. 😣 - maybe because I mentally group by phrase, not bars - there is not always a set number of bars to a phrase & I don't usually care if there's eighth or sixteenth notes.
Can you help me understand with some examples?
I DO understand how the bottom number in the time signature can help designate groupings in a bar, where accents should be felt for rhythm - and time signatures with the bottom number '8' (and top over 6) usually imply compound meter (groups of 3)... but I've seen a lot of exceptions in fiddle tunes, for instance Irish slip jigs are notated in 9/8, but they are not always grouped 3,3,3 - in fact, I'm having a hard time finding a lot that are played that way. Looks like most of The Top Ten Slip Jigs of the Century (not my top 10) deviate from a 'typical' 9/8 grouping pattern & rhythm.
At least I've discovered the swaying quality of a 'Lilt' is associated with compound meters! (Wikipedia) Usually 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 in fiddle dance music - but also the great 3/2 tunes I LOVE!
...the term, 'Lilt' has been used to mean singing without words, but it's also been used in reference to a type of swinging groove in music.
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ELCBK said
@Fiddlerman -Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?) Did you mean there would probably be a lot of sixteenth & thirty-second notes? 🥴 But my brain still wants to fight me on this - because it seems 4 eighth notes should at least imply 'faster' tempo than 4 quarter notes - 4/4 & 4/8 are still both just 'Simple' Time. 😣 - maybe because I mentally group by phrase, not bars - there is not always a set number of bars to a phrase & I don't usually care if there's eighth or sixteenth notes.
No, not more eighth notes. Just that the choice to write 4/8 in the time signature vs writing 4/4. In other words, you can write either time signature as a composer and simply change the tempo markings.
Often the choice of writing X/8 vs other options is related to wanting to play the eighth notes slower or grouping 8th notes.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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using notion or musescore is a good way to experiment. you dont have to use the whole score..just a few measures. notion allows you to add a swing percentage as well. but thats opening up a whole different definiton problem. a percentage of what? 🙂 but it works.
this is a video on that aspect.
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ELCBK said
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes,
Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?)
I think Pierre means that if your music is written in 4/8, then it won't have many quarter notes.
Andrew
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Talking of swing percentage may be blinding Emily with science.
Basically there are two rhythms, Emily.
March means you divide a quarter note into two eighth notes and it goes one two one two
shuffle means you divide a quarter note into triplets and it goes humpty, dumpty, humpty, dumpty.
Swing means you use a shuffle rhythm. If you're in a band and the leader says "I want more swing" or "less swing" you do it by feel, not by notation or math.
Glenn Miller's In The Mood is a Shuffle rhythm, but it may have been written as a marching rhythm (because it's easier to write it that way) with the words "Shuffle rhythm" written above the time sig. For example: -
This doesn't sound one, two, one, two. It sounds humpty dumpty humpty dumpty. In fact, you can see from the bass that it's a boogie woogie. Ok, we don't usually think of boogie woogie as swinging. We reserve the word swing for certain types of big band or jazz music, but the mechanics are the same. In the same way that the mechanics of rock rhythms and marching rhythms are the same.
I'm sure you've watched videos on this.
Andrew
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@Fiddlerman -
Thank you for explaining!
Puts me one step closer to being able to transcribe music I hear! Used to think it didn't matter if I learned how, but grandkids & good friends can change a person's mindset. (lol)
...slowly gaining confidence in my understanding of composition - just don't want to have to depend on software.
@ABitRusty -
THANK YOU!
VERY COOL VIDEO on degrees of Swing rhythm!
I'm going to have to see what else that Channel has to offer!
Is this pertaining to what I said about 'Lilt'? We've talked (in the past) about feeling it, but never really talked about defining it.
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@Gordon Shumway -
First of all, I really appreciate you showed me an example where the rhythm is plainly written in words, so people can't misinterpret the notation! Thank you!
You said:
Basically there are two rhythms, Emily.
Are you meaning 2 types of meters - simple & compound? ... because there are many different rhythms.
Did my mention of 'Lilting' redirect the discussion of Time Signatures?
Sorry, I was more concerned with identifying what types of notes I hear in fast tempo music (not looking at sheet music, just listening). I might hear 4 beats, but would I notate it in 4/4 or 4/8 if I want it perceived as fast? I think I can understand 'Cut Time' (being 2/2) is quicker than 4/4 - but even though 6/8 is a compound meter, it can even feel like 2 beats (and conducted as such) if the tempo is fast!
You said:
Swing means you use a shuffle rhythm.
I mentioned 'Lilt' being associated with Compound Meter, but a feeling of swing doesn't always have to occur within a shuffle - because you can feel it with 2 notes, by delaying the 2nd note.
Not a fan of getting caught up in terminology, even though I know its a necessary evil. I can only say I feel many variations of 'swing', 'sway', 'lilt' - groove is still probably a better all around term for me. Just think if we can emphasize it, it makes music much more interesting - of course I also want to be able to show it in notation.
A GREAT, indepth, article describing 'Swing' in music at: promusicianhub.com
'Swing' can mean 3 different things in music:
- Swing 'Feel' - like groove.
- Swing 'Rhythm' - an unequal pulse caused by delayed eighth notes in Jazz & delayed sixteenth notes in Funk & some other genres.
- Swing 'Style' - a style of Jazz
To me, Boogie Woogie can be swung - I've heard it & my body feels it, but if people play too fast, that makes it hard to feel notes swung.
Btw, I really appreciate all the help as I struggle to make sense of music structure, Classical music rules & other Fiddle music styles around the World! 🥰
Thanks to you all!
- Emily
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@elcbk asked..this pertaining to what I said about 'Lilt'? We've talked (in the past) about feeling it, but never really talked about defining it.
yes..but because i said you can add "swing" i figured i needed to point out the percentage thing about it and gave the link proactively. figured if you dug deeper you may notice..hoping to help not confuse.
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The problem is, Emily, you seem to be defining as GREAT, and indepth anything that confuses you further. You then ask us to help you, when it is your supposedly GREAT, indepth sources that should be doing that.
My advice is any word such as "lilt", if it isn't in a book on music theory, IGNORE IT, or at best, treat it as 100% subjective!
My advice is, read a book on music theory and give up on the internet.
If you want conspiracy theories about JFK or Jack the Ripper, the internet will provide them.
Don't imagine it will automatically serve better for music theory.
Andrew
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@Gordon Shumway -
I appreciate your opinion.
'Lilt' is not a term used in Classical music, but it is used in several genres of Fiddle music that I play.
Everything I learn about music and playing my instruments is 'subjective', because it's based on what I see, what I hear, what I feel & what I think.
Videos and articles I share because they help clarify things for me, they don't confuse me... and they are never the only things I read & watch - just like I would never read just one book, by one author.
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Sorry I was snippy. I've been up since 3AM.
Andrew
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ELCBK said
@Fiddlerman -Thank you for explaining!
Puts me one step closer to being able to transcribe music I hear! Used to think it didn't matter if I learned how, but grandkids & good friends can change a person's mindset. (lol)
...slowly gaining confidence in my understanding of composition - just don't want to have to depend on software.
Frankly, I'm impressed that you take the time to learn difficult new things. Though I am a very hard worker, I get lazy when it comes to learning new things. For now, I'll blame this on how busy I am. I won't have excuses when I retire though. 🤣
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@fiddlerman OH NO YOUR NOT!! you cant retire now!
excuses.. i hear yah! i blame alot on not having time. the trick will be like i hear alot of retirees say... "Im busier now than i ever was when i was working!!" 🙂
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ABitRusty said
@fiddlerman OH NO YOUR NOT!! you cant retire now!excuses.. i hear yah! i blame alot on not having time. the trick will be like i hear alot of retirees say... "Im busier now than i ever was when i was working!!" 🙂
Don't worry, I'll probably do more for Fiddlerman.com after I semi-retire. I would just tone Fiddlershop work down.
The only thing on my bucket list is to do the Great American Loop which I plan on doing with my wife starting April 2024.
You haven't seen the last of me. 
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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Fiddlerman said
Frankly, I'm impressed that you take the time to learn difficult new things. Though I am a very hard worker, I get lazy when it comes to learning new things. For now, I'll blame this on how busy I am. I won't have excuses when I retire though. 🤣
Thank you!
There's probably just something wrong with me. (lol)
...if I could only make myself do the same thing with DAW. 😣
Been thinking more about what you said about grouping by Bars - making sense to me.
Found out Ballroom dancers actually count 'Bars'-Per-Minute, instead of Beat Per Minute. 😳
What did I get out of all this so far?
I finally got my mind set that at 100 BPM - 5/4 & 5/8 are both the same time, because each have the same number of beats per bar & at the end of one minute BOTH have played the same number of beats. BUT, I swear, EVERY metronome beat I compared of these 2 Time Signatures at 100 BPM - the 5/8 is faster! 😖 One video I watched said everyone argues about this...
On a different 'note' - a Bar of 10 sixteenth notes is going to 'FEEL' faster to me than a Bar of 5 eighth notes (at the same BPM), even though it's NOT actually any faster, just 'BUSIER' to play 10 notes vs 5 notes (within the same time period), more aural activity & my fingers are moving 'FASTER'.
Got that Time Signature & Meter are NOT the same thing. Meter is the way notes are grouped in a measure. Groupings help show where accents should be and help define rhythm. I like Complex Meters. I think some Compound Meters might have potential to hint possible 'swing', & some Complex Meters might be able to hint at syncopation - but they aren't used that way.
I see Time Signatures can be written different ways, end up with very different results. Still, think I've only gotten a glimpse of ways composers use Time Signatures, like:
A perfectly consistent unusual metrical pattern may be notated in a more familiar time signature that does not correspond to it. For example, the Passacaglia from Britten's opera Peter Grimes consists of variations over a recurring bass line eleven beats in length but is notated in ordinary 4
4 time, with each variation lasting 2+3⁄4 bars, and therefore commencing each time one crotchet earlier in the bar than the preceding one. (Wikipedia)
Classical music does use a lot of different words & symbols (to define action & tempo) that are NOT usually found in fiddle music genres.
I also think Classical Western music has Music Theory Rules that Fiddle music doesn't care if it breaks! 😁 ...hence 'Crooked' Tunes, etc... good thing I won't be experimenting with Time Signatures for Classical music. (lol)
I did find a wonderful List of Musical Works, including Classical, with Unusual Time Signatures (at Wikipedia)!
Know I have a lot more to learn.
...and I'll have more questions!
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Thank you for the link Emily. I was looking for something about the alto/tenor clef, now I got it!
Sidney
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spatin51 said
Thank you for the link Emily. I was looking for something about the alto/tenor clef, now I got it!Sidney
spatin51
🤔... what does this thread, or any links here, have to do with Alto or Tenor Clef?
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