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ELCBK said
It starts out at 9/8, grouped 3,3,3, but at 2:30 the video sounds like the meter switches to 5/4 time for approx 16 bars - then at approx 3:00 I hear 4/4 that changes into an 8 beat syncopated rhythm (3,3,2 then 3,2,3), then to a faster 4/4 (maybe more like 4/8?). Seems like a 3 part tune to me & isn't notated that way at The Session...........
Whether it's 3,3,2 or 3,2,3 or 2,3,3 in a 8/8 time signature depends on how the composer wanted to play the "triplets", because the 3 is basically always played as a triplet when grouped like that.
I am having a time crisis, though...
Reels seem like they are played in 4/8 (to me), not 4/4. So, when does a FAST 4/4 become a 4/8, or 4/16 - where's the BPM cutoff??? I watched one video that said there wasn't really any difference between 3/4 & 3/8... really? Why isn't it twice as fast?
The time signature has nothing to do with speed. Usually it's chosen to make counting easier. It's about grouping more than speed.
The truth of the matter is that you would expect to play a 4/4 faster than a 4/8 in most situations. A 4/2 would be even faster. You'd basically be playing cut time.
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes, but you could just as easily write the same thing in 4/4 with half as many bar lines. So if you mentally group music by bars, you would technically want to play the same exact music written in 4/4, faster than 4/8.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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@Fiddlerman -
THANK YOU, FOR YOUR HELP!
First, I thought you messed me up MORE 🤣, but actually, you made me think differently & I REALLY appreciate that! 🤗
...I do hope I've finally gotten at least part of this.
Guess I must've been a magician in my former life to think a 'whole' note, a 'quarter' note, or an eighth note, etc... has some kind of an innate time duration value, a measurable length, without any reference to speed! (duh) 😳 I can see now, this is ridiculous - kinda like a 'half', or 'quarter' of something means absolutely nothing... unless I know what it is half, or quarter 'of'!
So, 'notes' ONLY have a value because a tempo (BPM) has been established, e.g., even a 3/4 waltz could sound exactly like 3/1 - at the right tempo... makes sense in that respect!
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes, but you could just as easily write the same thing in 4/4 with half as many bar lines. So if you mentally group music by bars, you would technically want to play the same exact music written in 4/4, faster than 4/8.
Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?) Did you mean there would probably be a lot of sixteenth & thirty-second notes? 🥴 But my brain still wants to fight me on this - because it seems 4 eighth notes should at least imply 'faster' tempo than 4 quarter notes - 4/4 & 4/8 are still both just 'Simple' Time. 😣 - maybe because I mentally group by phrase, not bars - there is not always a set number of bars to a phrase & I don't usually care if there's eighth or sixteenth notes.
Can you help me understand with some examples?
I DO understand how the bottom number in the time signature can help designate groupings in a bar, where accents should be felt for rhythm - and time signatures with the bottom number '8' (and top over 6) usually imply compound meter (groups of 3)... but I've seen a lot of exceptions in fiddle tunes, for instance Irish slip jigs are notated in 9/8, but they are not always grouped 3,3,3 - in fact, I'm having a hard time finding a lot that are played that way. Looks like most of The Top Ten Slip Jigs of the Century (not my top 10) deviate from a 'typical' 9/8 grouping pattern & rhythm.
At least I've discovered the swaying quality of a 'Lilt' is associated with compound meters! (Wikipedia) Usually 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 in fiddle dance music - but also the great 3/2 tunes I LOVE!
...the term, 'Lilt' has been used to mean singing without words, but it's also been used in reference to a type of swinging groove in music.
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ELCBK said
@Fiddlerman -Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?) Did you mean there would probably be a lot of sixteenth & thirty-second notes? 🥴 But my brain still wants to fight me on this - because it seems 4 eighth notes should at least imply 'faster' tempo than 4 quarter notes - 4/4 & 4/8 are still both just 'Simple' Time. 😣 - maybe because I mentally group by phrase, not bars - there is not always a set number of bars to a phrase & I don't usually care if there's eighth or sixteenth notes.
No, not more eighth notes. Just that the choice to write 4/8 in the time signature vs writing 4/4. In other words, you can write either time signature as a composer and simply change the tempo markings.
Often the choice of writing X/8 vs other options is related to wanting to play the eighth notes slower or grouping 8th notes.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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using notion or musescore is a good way to experiment. you dont have to use the whole score..just a few measures. notion allows you to add a swing percentage as well. but thats opening up a whole different definiton problem. a percentage of what? 🙂 but it works.
this is a video on that aspect.
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ELCBK said
Usually if something is written in 4/8, there will be a lot of eighth notes,
Now THIS, I'm confused about - not sure how a bar in 4/8 can have more than 4 eighth notes (?)
I think Pierre means that if your music is written in 4/8, then it won't have many quarter notes.
Andrew
Verified human - the ignominy!
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Talking of swing percentage may be blinding Emily with science.
Basically there are two rhythms, Emily.
March means you divide a quarter note into two eighth notes and it goes one two one two
shuffle means you divide a quarter note into triplets and it goes humpty, dumpty, humpty, dumpty.
Swing means you use a shuffle rhythm. If you're in a band and the leader says "I want more swing" or "less swing" you do it by feel, not by notation or math.
Glenn Miller's In The Mood is a Shuffle rhythm, but it may have been written as a marching rhythm (because it's easier to write it that way) with the words "Shuffle rhythm" written above the time sig. For example: -
This doesn't sound one, two, one, two. It sounds humpty dumpty humpty dumpty. In fact, you can see from the bass that it's a boogie woogie. Ok, we don't usually think of boogie woogie as swinging. We reserve the word swing for certain types of big band or jazz music, but the mechanics are the same. In the same way that the mechanics of rock rhythms and marching rhythms are the same.
I'm sure you've watched videos on this.
Andrew
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@Fiddlerman -
Thank you for explaining!
Puts me one step closer to being able to transcribe music I hear! Used to think it didn't matter if I learned how, but grandkids & good friends can change a person's mindset. (lol)
...slowly gaining confidence in my understanding of composition - just don't want to have to depend on software.
@ABitRusty -
THANK YOU!
VERY COOL VIDEO on degrees of Swing rhythm!
I'm going to have to see what else that Channel has to offer!
Is this pertaining to what I said about 'Lilt'? We've talked (in the past) about feeling it, but never really talked about defining it.
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@Gordon Shumway -
First of all, I really appreciate you showed me an example where the rhythm is plainly written in words, so people can't misinterpret the notation! Thank you!
You said:
Basically there are two rhythms, Emily.
Are you meaning 2 types of meters - simple & compound? ... because there are many different rhythms.
Did my mention of 'Lilting' redirect the discussion of Time Signatures?
Sorry, I was more concerned with identifying what types of notes I hear in fast tempo music (not looking at sheet music, just listening). I might hear 4 beats, but would I notate it in 4/4 or 4/8 if I want it perceived as fast? I think I can understand 'Cut Time' (being 2/2) is quicker than 4/4 - but even though 6/8 is a compound meter, it can even feel like 2 beats (and conducted as such) if the tempo is fast!
You said:
Swing means you use a shuffle rhythm.
I mentioned 'Lilt' being associated with Compound Meter, but a feeling of swing doesn't always have to occur within a shuffle - because you can feel it with 2 notes, by delaying the 2nd note.
Not a fan of getting caught up in terminology, even though I know its a necessary evil. I can only say I feel many variations of 'swing', 'sway', 'lilt' - groove is still probably a better all around term for me. Just think if we can emphasize it, it makes music much more interesting - of course I also want to be able to show it in notation.
A GREAT, indepth, article describing 'Swing' in music at: promusicianhub.com
'Swing' can mean 3 different things in music:
- Swing 'Feel' - like groove.
- Swing 'Rhythm' - an unequal pulse caused by delayed eighth notes in Jazz & delayed sixteenth notes in Funk & some other genres.
- Swing 'Style' - a style of Jazz
To me, Boogie Woogie can be swung - I've heard it & my body feels it, but if people play too fast, that makes it hard to feel notes swung.
Klub Nos Lowen is a monthly night of Celtic wildness celebrating Cornish Nos Lowen dance and music, featuring different live bands each month [in Falmouth, Cornwall].
My next discovery was about a tune everyone is familiar with - 'Amazing Grace'. I always see it notated in 3/4 (including the versions of Fiddlerman sheet music), but it certainly doesn't feel like 3/4 to me, so took a look where I hear it most frequently - Scottish bagpipes.
Amazing Grace is Wrong: Uncovering the Secret Timing of the World's Most Famous Bagpipe Tune - from Jori Chisholm (bagpipelessons.com). All the chapters have time-stamps in the video description for this interesting analysis! Starts with examples (even Elvis) & looking at the time signature, then the nitty-gritty starts at 18:50.
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THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE (to me)!
Please remember, pipers (especially GHB) don't 'sight read' music - they have to memorize (like I feel fiddlers should want to)... then go off marching, scaring small animals & babies, etc...
I found this info on 'Amazing Grace' after watching Jori's extensive video on 'Bagpipe tune types & Time Signatures', but I'll post about it in the Scotish Bagpipe music thread.
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I've gotten soooo used to thinking about only a few Time Signatures (4/4, 3/4, 6/8)... but I keep finding more & more reasons to explore the 'odd' ones!
So, after YEARS of listening to 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4... would it be worth spending time listening to a 5-beat metronome, just to make it (or any other odd time) feel normal?
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