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Sourdough experiment !!!!
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BillyG
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July 9, 2020 - 11:34 am
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Yeah, so, OK then - I did a forum search for the word "sourdough" - ha, not a single match.  Yeah, it's not a music topic, but, this is the Breakroom, where, within reason of course anything goes - and we've had lengthy posts discussing the home-roasting of coffee and all the chat about the first crack and second crack (in Scotland, that means the first joke told, then the second....  different lives, what? ).  

The absence of sourdough references astonishes me, because it is all I see on social media platforms.  (well, fair enough, the posts I see are probably targeted at me, because I referenced sourdough on some darned Google or FB search somewhere, some 5 years ago!!!!  Yeah, so, it's my fault entirely... fair point...)

Anyway, I have baked bread of various types since I was a student- and yes, that was 50 years ago.  I wouldn't call my attempts at bread-craft "artisan bread making" but - I, my good lady, and our visitors always like the outcome.  Some are plain, some are flavoured ( I made sun-dried-tomato-and-olive soda-breads before the term was ever fashionable- and my onion-herby loaves are to die for ! ).  We have a "breadmaker" - which - I would say I use (for the yeast based breads), oh, maybe one in 4 or 5 times if I'm too busy and pushed for time to spend 10 or so minutes kneading dough, another 5 to clear the mess, and another ten lost knocking back and cleaning-up following the initial rise, prior to cooking.

Up till now I've only ever made bread using instant/dried yeast, or soda-style-breads - never had the time to attack the sourdough technique.

We only rarely purchase store-bought bread - but when we do, it's usually a sourdough loaf.  The sweet/sharpness has always fascinated me.

So, I am on a mission.

And back to the various social media and web-site posts - the whole thing (the actual MAKING of the starter in the first place) varies enormously.  [ But, clearly, they all work, either in shorter or longer time, or develop with a more intense flavour and so on]

I had to go research the chemistry on this ( OK, I understood the basics, but there is much more to it than I realized ).

And as for the actual bread-making, once the starter is well established and active - some recipes call for like 25g starter, but, can take a day to rise (and that's in "normal temperatures" - 2 days in a fridge!!!) and some- much "quicker" ( if you can call it that, can use almost 10 times that amount of starter, and proof in around 5 hours).  A "normal" dried/active yeast mix will proof/double largely within an hour (hand made, not the breadmaker)

It looks like in some way - it doesn't matter - so long as you have a good, stable, well activated starter.  The lower-amount / chilling  longer proofing time appears to yield a more intense flavor ( and THAT'S the one for me! )

Anyway - I know - this is FAR away from music - although - the way I understand music is through the math, physics and science behind it ( the PLAYING of course transcends all that - or it should once you have the piece "nailed" ).   I see a similar thing with the sourdough - understand the science and chemistry - and you can "tailor the end result" to the outcome you want.

A bit like working through a score getting it as "perfect" ( if that means anything ) as possible - THEN - (for soloing, of course) throwing the score away and just playing it "the way YOU feel it in the here-and-now".  Must read like heresy to some, I appreciate that - and that's fair enough - no problem- we're all different, but to my mind, that's what brings our individuality into whatever we are doing ( playing music, or making a sourdough starter - I see no real difference ! )

Sourdough (the starter) is a living thing of course, and has to be treated as such to be kept alive.  Many family created starters, generations ago, still survive- the original starter can have been, 50, 70, 100 years, or even more, old.  And this is what enthralls me.  These starters often have names.

This is my first attempt, and, were it to be successful, it will be called "Old Schoolhouse Majestic"  ( or, just "Madge" for short )

I just did my initial flour/water-mix today ( not telling you what it is, it's a secret! ), and I have chosen the "slow-path" for the creation of the starter ( as I will do when I use it once it is ready to use for bread proofing ) - so this may take some 8 - maybe even 10 days before I have a viable, weekly regenerable sourdough "sponge"..... and possibly 12 days to my first sourdough loaf.

But, after that, my "feeding regime" for the activated starter (kept in the fridge) should get me a stable starter for weekly use, with regular (possibly twice a week, maybe only once - we'll see) feeding.

Now - I'm a Scot.  Scottish folks seem to have some sort of unfounded international reputation for being "mean".   Well, we are NOT.  We are just "cautious" and HATE, simply HATE to see waste !!!!   Most ( OK, many ) folks who keep a live sourdough-starter culture will "discard" a certain quantity of the existing mix when feeding is required(you could retain it, but, you'd end up with gallons of the stuff after a year - which you could never store, let alone use)- so they throw it away.  Mehhh- it can be used to make pancakes, waffles, slightly denser doughs (say for savoury rolls - be it cinnamon, herby, etc etc) - but the point is THE DISCARDED starter from the feeding process CAN BE USED.  Now, that make me very, very happy.....  No waste!

Attached is my very first sourdough "pre-starter" mix - it may take 3 days to froth up and double in volume.... after that - yes, it will require regular attention - daily or even possibly twice daily - to get it to stabilise.  THEN, only then, is it good to go!

I'll keep you (if anyone is actually interested LOLOL) advised !

The cool dude in the pic is Jay-Gee ( Jazz Guitarist- a lovely present last Xmas from my better half ! ) - I may need to write a fiddle tune "Waiting on that sourdough.."

This of course could all end in disaster, and I may end up with green-moldy slime - but - no - I don't believe so... we'll see !!!!

Here's Jay Gee watching the initial mix !

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Gordon Shumway
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I remember once making yeast dough in a biology lesson at school when I was 13. 

We prepared the dough then let the teacher put it somewhere safe for us until our next lesson, which was a week later. We came back to find green mouldy slime. I think even at that tender age it was obvious to me that my teacher was a bit of a plonker. I gave up biology at the age of 14. I wish I'd given up all the other sciences too!

Andrew

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BillyG
Brora, North-east Scotland
July 9, 2020 - 12:34 pm
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ROFL ALf @Gordon Shumway !!!   A bad start there (well, not YOUR fault) !

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ELCB
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July 9, 2020 - 2:14 pm
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BillyG - Definitely a worthwhile adventure!

I had been making good bread since 1980 when I discovered "Bread Flour" (w/malted barley).

Back about 10yrs ago (before I got this laid up w/chronic pain & other health issues) my BH and I had tons of fun making just about everything Sourdough you can imagine.  All kinds of bread, rolls, pizza, English muffins/crumpets, pancakes & even a chocolate Bundt cake.

A heavy-duty mixer with a bread hook takes the place of kneading, so my only tips are - don't OVER feed your starter (I'm guilty) or neglect it too long (we fed rye or pumpernickel & 1st Clear Flour), make sure you have outer tension when forming your loaves/rolls, rub or brush a little oil on the outside of the dough for faster & higher rise - and last, try to refrain from cutting your loaves before cooled.

We had fun adding in other grains and flavors - one favorite used a little oat flour, was just slightly sweet w/few drops of orange oil or zest.  This also made heavenly rolls if you roll out the dough and spread with a mixture of butter, marmalade, dark brown sugar and cinnamon or pumpkin pie spice mix - then roll up & cut slices, brush tops with melted butter or oil, then rise/bake like Cinnamon Rolls.

One more favorite was Pepperoni Bread - olive oil, roasted garlic & herbs in the dough, divide the dough in 1/4's, then roll out & cover w/thin slices of pepperoni or salami, form small loaves & brush w/more olive oil & wait to rise before baking.

There are many great websites now to help you troubleshoot if you have problems, so good luck!

 

- Emily

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BillyG
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July 9, 2020 - 3:26 pm
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OMG @ELCB mouth-watering stuff - we're on the same wavelength here !  LOL

Yeah - I'll keep y'all updated with progress / success / otherwise with "Madge" as it all evolves!!!!

And, truly appreciate your tips / hints / ideas there - some of which, yes, are in my bread-making-arsenal already, especially with hand-kneaded normal yeast based items.   But the "over-feeding" warning makes a lot of sense, I get that!

Oh - the oat bread ....  darn it, I love the flavour of that, and, heck, haven't made (not SD  of course - just yeast based) in about 5 years....  can't wait to try a SD version!  Been known to add a LITTLE bit of herb flavour to the oat-bread (dry-fried/toasted oats) - either some thyme flowers/blitzed rosemary  leaves - JUST enough for a taste and no more...  awesome!   ( Saying that - years back I made a garlic, onion and coriander (cilantro) bread - hmmm... we ate it.... but 1/10th of the garlic would have been enough - I could still taste it two days later LOLOLOL - but - you've got to experiment with these things - and with some tweaking and the addition of grated cheese (yup !) it has been much more acceptable since  then ! )

1st-placedancinbunnythanx_gif

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ELCB
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July 9, 2020 - 3:39 pm
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BillyG - Don't give up on the Garlic!

If you don't have time to roast a few heads to make them really sweet, just wrap your cloves in a slightly damp paper towel or cloth and microwave until steaming hot (no more than 10 sec for 4-6 large cloves - if they "pop", you're in trouble) - this removes that harsh, lingering bitterness but keeps the flavor!

Whole clove roasted garlic bread is pretty big over here, but caramelized onions would be even richer/sweeter.

You are going to have a lot of fun - I'm envious!

 

- Emily

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ELCB
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August 1, 2020 - 9:01 pm
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BillyG -

Rolling Eyes Emotion EmoticonsAny Sourdough bread, yet?

 

Just Rolling Along Smiley- Emily

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BillyG
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August 2, 2020 - 2:44 am
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🙂 @ELCB - indeedely doodely - "Madge" is into her 4th generation !  Latest of 3 loaves just baked yesterday - so starter 4 is now slowly fermenting ( in the fridge ).

Real difficult at the start largely because I wasn't fully aware of what was happening, and it entered a vigorous hooch-production-mode (and no, I didn't drink it!!!).  But, I got that stabilised, and I would say the first actual loaf was made around 8 or 9 days later - oh - the pics I took will have a date/time - hang on - I'll get them - 

Here's the progress....  oops - probably due to the name-order - the FINAL image (of the cut loaf) appears first - the reset are in time-order.....

 

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Absolutely SPOT ON !!!  

So far, I have "hurried" the final starter (and the dough) rise times by doing that in a warm room - I'm getting into the rhythm of it now, and, with a longer, cooler and slower rise times for both the final starter amount and the bread dough itself (andthe dough proofing time), the flavour (already quite detectable) can only intensify !!!  Delish !!!

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ELCB
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August 2, 2020 - 5:22 am
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BillyG -Oh my!  I can almost taste that bread... and all those wonderful little nooks & crannies!

"Madge" looks VERY healthy, too! 

Are you rolling your dough with your palm (in a circular motion) to form a tight surface tension before your last rise?  Or if your loaves are too big to do that, keep going around the outer edge (pulling/tucking the surface under as you go) until the top surface is so tight it keeps more of a ball shape for your last rise. Some people do the last proof in a cast iron dutch oven - then also bake it in there, covered.

Geez, I'm sorry - I'm rediculously excited for you (I'm sure you already know all that other stuff)!

Just reminiscing - I was always so amazed at how versatile sourdough starter is & how it affects not only the taste, but the texture of the bread. 

The breakfast (or dinner) rolls my BH (Better Half) and I would make would come out as soft as if we'd added eggs - but it only took replacing 1/2 the H2O with warm whole milk (or even sour milk) and a little sugar, maybe some zest - then a little oil over the surface to rise/bake with no crust!  Probably why it lends itself to pancakes!  Hmm... I better still have the recipe for the "Sourdough Chocolate Bundt Cake" we used to make - it was surprising delicious!

Let me know if you have trouble finding recipes you'd like to try.

Btw, nice to hear from you!

 

Owner And Pet Smiley- Emily

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BillyG
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August 2, 2020 - 6:32 am
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ELCB said
......Are you rolling your dough with your palm (in a circular motion) to form a tight surface tension before your last rise?  Or if your loaves are too big to do that, keep going around the outer edge (pulling/tucking the surface under as you go) until the top surface is so tight it keeps more of a ball shape for your last rise......

Yes, the latter

Been experimenting with a wetter dough as well - the resulting loaves tend to spread-out somewhat (but I have a cure for that!) - however, the internal bubbles/holes/nooks-and-crannies are significantly larger.  Good for holding lots of honey or butter LOLOL

The breakfast (or dinner) rolls my BH (Better Half) and I would make would come out as soft as if we'd added eggs - but it only took replacing 1/2 the H2O with warm whole milk (or even sour milk) and a little sugar, maybe some zest - then a little oil over the surface to rise/bake with no crust!  Probably why it lends itself to pancakes!  Hmm... I better still have the recipe for the "Sourdough Chocolate Bundt Cake" we used to make - it was surprising delicious!

Interestingly enough - yesterday's loaf-dough was FAR too wet - in fact, almost runny!!!! I was over-enthusiastic - so on its hand-kneading process I added probably around 200g strong white (aye, roughly - I think it weighed in at 1100g after that).  So I cut it back to my usual weight, around 800g, and froze the residual dough.  We've had perfect success with freezing normal yeast based doughs and then bringing it back to life - so here's hoping on the frozen SD - because - that's exactly what my plan was (breakfast rolls!).

Yeah - if you have any printed (or scanned) recipe info, feel free to PM me with your favourites !  Debbie is well into this now as well - she took a bit of convincing at around day 3 of the process, but now she's coming up with her own ideas !  Cool!

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ELCB
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BillyG - Just Being Contented Smiley 

Wet dough + larger holes = "Ciabatta"!  Yum!

I will PM you - it will take me a while to convert measurements for a few of my better recipes.  I need to dig up some great links off my old (dead) laptop, too.  You'll still need to experiment with my recipes.

Leaving you with this link to site I bought much of my supplies - you can compare to what you have available.  Some good recipes & info here - until I get you others.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.c.....=sourdough

Thanks for giving me something to do to take my mind off some of my chronic pain on this deary, rainy day (besides play my "Mortimer" for a few hours)!

Dentures Fall Out Laughing Emoticons- Emily
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BillyG
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August 2, 2020 - 12:47 pm
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@ELCB - sorry to hear about the pain - particularly on a dull, dreary, rainy day ( I kind of appreciate that feeling although for me, it's "passable" and largely I can ignore it - well to a certain point, then when it gets too present, sure, I do have to re-assess what I'm doing.  For me, it's largely lower back issues - and I KNOW where it came from, but that's another story.  It helps, for me, to be as active as possible - seems to keep the joints and lower-back muscles in some kind of "trim" but the dreary-rainy days just make it worse because I don't feel like getting out and about!!!  Oh well...)

Anyway - to cheer you up a bit - here's a couple of trad Scottish tunes (with my own improv/interp as ever) which I shared for the ASVF FaceBook group - it was really very much an off-the-cuff impromptu take in the middle of some decorating work - didn't bother sharing here, well because, they were not up to my usual standard with horrid background rumble...  even so - here you go - hope it makes you smile ! 

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ELCB
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BillyG -That Is Hot Smiley

Those really cheered me up - thank you!  I love your "light" way of playing and your "lightheartedness" while you do it!

I suppose the closest I've come to your tunes this last month is learning "Brenda Stubbert's Strathspey" (Scottish or Cape Breton?).

 

I Love Music Smiley- Emily

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Scrap
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Last year I took a trip to San Francisco, where I had spent some time many years ago. After eating sourdough bowls with clam chowder, I decided I am going to learn to make sourdough bread. Now, I have NEVER made bread before. Okay, so I may have been a bit of an idiot. I researched sourdough. I am cheap. I decided that I could start my own starter. Who doesn't like science, right? So I began my adventure. It worked! I created my own starter. I have baked delicious loafs of sourdough bread. I have branched out to wheat, with yeast, as well as white rolls. So amazing! I have also made sourdough pancakes and waffles. So delicious. I have just given away some of my starter too. What a journey.

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Scrap
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Last year I took a trip to San Francisco, where I had spent some time many years ago. After eating sourdough bowls with clam chowder, I decided I am going to learn to make sourdough bread. Now, I have NEVER made bread before. Okay, so I may have been a bit of an idiot. I researched sourdough. I am cheap. I decided that I could start my own starter. Who doesn't like science, right? So I began my adventure. It worked! I created my own starter. I have baked delicious loafs of sourdough bread. I have branched out to wheat, with yeast, as well as white rolls. So amazing! I have also made sourdough pancakes and waffles. So delicious. I have just given away some of my starter too. What a journey.

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BillyG
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August 4, 2020 - 11:22 pm
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@Scrap - AWESOME !!!!  drummer

Welcome to the club !!!

Yup, nothing to beat home-made bread or rolls - even normal yeast-based ones.  Who can possibly resist getting that coffee percolator going once you get the smell of the break baking ! coffee2

Now, come on, Scrap - you have got to give it a name !  bunny_pole_dancer

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ELCB
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Hi Scrap - I haven't been to San Francisco since I was 12yrs old!

Just Being Contented SmileyI still remember every moment...

Do you have any recipes you are specially fond of?

I have a Chocolate Bundt, an English Muffin, Pizza dough and 2 Sweet Bread/Roll sourdough favorites I saved for my "go to" recipes, but have made many others.

 

High Five Emoticons- Emily

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Scrap
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I have two that I make regularly, pancakes and waffles. I have tried a few different bread recipes, I love toasted and buttered in the morning! I have also done a tortilla one. I want to try English Muffin and others. Needless to say, I am an addict. I won't go to any meetings because I don't want to stop and no one can make me. Unless there is more sourdough there, then I am coming. 

 

@billyg I wanted to name it Monte-Ray, because I spent a lot of time in Monterey and loved the bread down there too. My wife said, nope. That was lame. So I threw out Mr. Doughlicious. She said that one worked. 

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damfino
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I tried sourdough several months back, and while the starter grew and was happy, the bread didn't turn out. I ended up giving up on bread and using my starter to make some pretty awesome pancakes, lol. It made a ton, and I still have some frozen.

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starise
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More power to yas.

I mostly buy my bread. I have a few bread  makers. None of them have produced anything yet. Just kidding. Seriously I bought the mix and rolled the dough. It was ok.

Not a huge connoisseur of fine breads, though I buy the healthier offerings here made with the good stuff.

Pancake mix is great. I mix it with water, plop it in a pan and wa la I have pancakes in about 2 minutes. Seldom make them though. In a hurry mornings to get to work.

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