Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Our Hearing of Tone - Recording Music
There is More Than One Type of Ear Training!
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (3 votes) 
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 4, 2024 - 12:49 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7807
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Jeez, I feel lucky I can hear a note and find it on the violin. 🥴

I can distinguish more & more arpeggios, intervals & chords, but I still need to play them for verification.  I always feel I should spend more time on 'Ear Training' - as a musician. 

There IS more than one kind of 'Ear Training'! 

Once a musician steps past performance, into the recording studio (DAW, editing & mixing) - I think it's important to consider this is 'audio engineer territory'.  

Audio Engineers train their ears to hear 'bands of frequencies'... why am I not surprised? 

Tonal Balance = Frequency Balance. 

As musicians, we discuss 'Tone' & 'Overtone' about our strings, our instrument, our bowing - using many different terms, but without referring to any frequencies... except for tuning. 

Music is only as good as we are capable of hearing, so how do we switch from thinking in terms of 'Tone' to thinking in terms of 'Frequencies'? 

FIRST, I had to take a closer look a common terms - NEXT, I'll have to check out some 'Ear Training Exercises'. 

 

Audio University has 'Ear Training' videos on their YT Channel.

 

This is what you might see in the DAW you use - helps me see how these terms apply. 

 

...I haven't had a chance to try different frequency ear training, yet. 

 

@ABitRusty -

Thank you for making me aware that there is some automated help, for folks like me, in editing software!

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
February 4, 2024 - 1:20 am
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3916
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you for making me aware that there is some automated help

i was referring to track automation.  hopefully we are on the same page.  you still have to control a fader or knob usually but you record those settings as the track plays then when the software plays back.. those settings are automatically used to adjust different variables.   its kind of like keyframes in video software.

its not a button thats pushed that tells the software something like... make this music sound less boxy.

izotope does have some software that can fo something similar..but you have to get it close to the target first.  

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 20, 2024 - 11:54 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7807
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I like Joe Gilder shows the benefits of using this plugin as a 'learning tool'! 

Easy help for learning the characteristics of different frequency ranges.  

 

Avatar
Sasha
Members

Regulars
February 22, 2024 - 8:14 am
Member Since: December 27, 2019
Forum Posts: 135
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

One thing to keep in mind when mixing, is that a solo instrument sound can be different, and sometimes very different than an instrument sound in a mix.

So how you treat a violin sound could be very different between being a solo violin or violin in the context of being in a band. A classical example would be say, perhaps in a quartet you might want a violin that tends to be more subtle and darker, where in an orchestra you might want something brighter and bolder with more projection.

Sure, you can use either in either situation, but each one will have a strength that lends itself easier to fit in.

Where in something like a modern context, let's say you have an extended range violin, and you make that sound great solo, as soon as the drums and bass (or guitars and synths) come in it starts having problems.

So while understanding frequency ranges is good, if there is a mix of other instruments you never want to EQ an instrument solo. And you could be surprised. You get that sounding great in the mix, all eq'd and then solo the instrument and go "Wow, that sounds really nasal" and go to fix it. Then it no longer fits in the mix.

But the other thing to remember is that there is more than the vertical (frequency) space available to work with, there is also horizontal (panning) so you gain a little flexibility there. Unless of course you are mixing for mono, but I am not sure that is even relevant any more other than perhaps AM radio. 

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 22, 2024 - 8:10 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7807
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Sasha -

GREAT points!  

Really appreciate you help put things in perspective.  I still have so much to learn, but I'm putting more pieces of the puzzle together.

Seems (to me) easy to 'over-EQ', also over-do 'panning' (actually any effect) especially with multiple opportunities to add EQ along the timeline & so many plugins available that automate it to 'save people time'.  I even hesitate to consider using any digital EQ pedals (playing in an effects lineup), but I have to check them out since they aren't all the same! 

I am still making TWO separate lists of mental notes:  

  1. everything I can manipulate for just playing - which 'might' be recorded, but no further processing expected
  2. vs recording, with the intention of editing & mixing with a DAW. 

Funny, had just watched this video the other day... how some of these plugins make EQ decisions in SOLO, so really needing other instruments side-chained - but they also don't take into consideration genre, or 'feeling'! 

For folks who don't like to watch videos, READ THE TRANSCRIPT. 

These Plugins Are Ruining Mixing (Sage Audio)

 

EQ (being loud or soft frequencies), filters AND Panning are 'Spectral Effects' - they are visually edited, but how we hear it is still VERY important! 

I've been learning more about how panning differs by genre - I don't want to hear everything just panned far L-R. 

 

SoundBite: Panning effects with filters. (Audio Masterclass)

I LOVE hearing sound location movement!!!

 

Reinvent Your Stereo Panning - PreSonus 

Very interesting article by Craig Anderton - getting some additional characteristic for better stereo, by using the Atmos panpots! 

This tip is about working with stereo, NOT about Dolby Atmos® or surround - but we’re going to steal some of what Atmos does to reinvent stereo panning.  Studio One’s Surround panners are compatible with stereo projects, offer capabilities that are difficult to implement with standard panpots, and are  easy to use. Just follow the setup instructions below, and start experimenting to find out how surround panning affects stereo tracks. (Surround panners work with mono tracks too, although of course the stereo spread parameter described later is irrelevant.)

 

🤔... seems to me, 'Time-based' effects, e.g., reverb, delay, etc... must be taken into account alongside 'Panning' - because they also add spatial features heard in a mix. 

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 22, 2024 - 8:18 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7807
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I realize it takes many years to learn to hear things well (beyond differences in pitch/tone, or L-R stereo vs 3D spacial sound).  Kinda mad I spent so many years listening to music, but without any real useful mental processing! 

Also, as far as hearing goes, I had been wondering about the disparaging difference between highly trained audio engineers, audiophiles vs the average person's hearing capabilities driving to work, or jogging.  I'd like to think I can hear more about music now than the average non-musician - but THAT could be debatable... geez, no self confidence. (lol) 

Do I really have to have expensive headphones & monitors to edit & mix audio? 

TG I've seen some evidence, at least a slight recent trend, toward thinking more about mixing for how the average person listens to music!

 

I LOVE my Oladance OWS - for me, a better choice than headset or in-ear airpods.  I like they even have better ones now (what a surprise 😄)! 

Guess what I'm going to use?  ...might be looking at the pro version later.

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
February 22, 2024 - 10:19 pm
Member Since: February 10, 2019
Forum Posts: 3916
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Panning..

Ive seen some say pan like youre looking at a band on a stage.   place drums up middle. a guitar somewhere to the right maybe...anither somewhere left.  fiddle here mandolin there..  etc.. he hits on this and also how that approach can be wrong and why.

this was a good video that kept it simple. Sorta says...use it till it doesnt make sense.  so.. in the end its up to what a person doing prefers.    So probably different approaches depending.  

 

headphones...

all i use..mostly.   i do have a decent set of monitors but usually have headphones on.

i use the monitors alot when playing with something or watching videos or listening to pandora when not doing music stuff.

Avatar
Sasha
Members

Regulars
February 23, 2024 - 12:58 am
Member Since: December 27, 2019
Forum Posts: 135
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

As far as panning, I don't know as you can over-do it like EQ can be overdone. Sure, there are some 'standards' but even those get broken. Some of the biggest records and bands just threw it out the window and did their own thing.

But there are certain expectations and elements involved. Like ABitRusty mentioned, drums up the center. Well, at least the kick and snare. Toms and cymbals are often panned. Bass and lead vocals in the center. But those are often doubled and added width. Effects, like delay, usually will be panned heavily. Stereo tracks can make a mess of things in a hurry, I will usually just throw away one side and then get extra width from my delay busses. And I moved to LCR several years ago. It just plain works and is so much faster. I'll only move something if it doesn't work or I am going for a specific effect.

I thought the book "The Art of Mixing" had a really neat way of showing a lot of this stuff. Worth looking into, there are a few YouTube videos about it as well.

As far as headphones and monitors for mixing, well, the flatter and clearer they are the better. But, it's more important that you know them and they are flat enough and clear enough. I mixed for almost 20 years on a pair of Behringer Truth monitors and got pretty good results. These new Adam monitors sure sound great, more clear than the Behringer, but I am still learning their sound and the sound of the new room.

Luckily, there is the art of "The Reference Track". Okay, nothing mysterious there. When I am mixing I will just pull in another well mixed track and compare the mix of my song to a good commercial mix. Like if I am mixing something really heavy I might pull in something off of Metallica's Black album.

And then there are times when I will just make it up as I go. :D

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
February 23, 2024 - 4:20 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 7807
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Sasha -

THANK YOU! 

Appreciate all the tips. 

I read up a little more on LCR mixing (LCR Panning Pros And Cons - SOS article) & I now have a better appreciation for this mindset. 

 

The 'Reinvent Your Stereo Panning in PreSonus' article (post 5, about using surround panners for features to use in stereo mixing) just got me more interested in learning about Immersive sound mixing.  An Introduction To Immersive Audio - very interesting differences in the 3 kinds; channel-based, scene-based & object-based - but there are 'hybrids'.  

...in principle, immersive content can be decoded for any speaker arrangement you like, from the bandwidth‑limited mono speaker in a smartphone to a full cinema array with many rear and side speakers, overhead speakers and subwoofers. It can also be fed through a binaural encoder to achieve a sense of immersion on headphones. In other words, whereas previous surround formats required listeners to adapt their setups to suit the format, immersive audio adapts itself to suit whatever setup is available.

 

 

Crazy, that some people are dedicating an additional computer to handle large object-based ADM files & to think people can listen to immersive audio with headphones (Binaural audio: What is it? How can you get it?).  Hearing in stereo was such a big thing when I was a kid, then the 'wow factor' of "Dolby" at theaters, Surround 5.1 was a like a revolution - everyone HAD to have the 'in-home theater' experience.  ...geez, I remember marveling at the 1st BOSE ad I ever saw, how they managed to make such fabulous sound come out of ONE single little device! 

 

...lots of fun contemplating, but I'm going back to just playing my uneven rhythms for now. 

Avatar
Sasha
Members

Regulars
February 23, 2024 - 5:36 pm
Member Since: December 27, 2019
Forum Posts: 135
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

I really want to start trying my hand at doing ATMOS mixing for my stuff. I will probably dive in to that soon. I've seen some people compare it to Quadrophonic, but it's a completely different thing. I'll probably start with 7.1.4 since I have that setup in my living room. :D

That Presonus setup looks pretty sweet, I need to dig in to Logic Pro's a bit more.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Katie L
Guest(s) 90
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today LyleA, Trisha
Upcoming Squiryl, BaldBeardedViolinist, mcassidy2004, AnnyJ, Reptile Smile, MyMing, CarolineNH, JamesRSmithJr, wonderputz
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7807
ABitRusty: 3916
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2430
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2152
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31670
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 82
Topics: 10602
Posts: 134336
Newest Members:
Terrence Terry Ruddy, andrea924breaux, pybring, stive4545, kevin498, Fiddlerjones, FidgetFrog, Adityaail, SoCal335, Jan Howard
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16430, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5340